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Discussion Starter #1
My friend has a bitch, black with a sable bleed through around neck and legs.. Her parents were.. Dam. Black and Tan.... Sire.White masking sable. In her five generation ped it show colours of.. Blacks, Black and tan, White's masking both sable and black.

The bitch was mated twice before to a white masking sable dog. The first litter produced. Black/sable. Blacks and Sables.

The second litter to the same dog, she produced Blacks. Black/sables and whites.

Her last litter she was put to a black and tan male.
The owner of the stud dog is questioning the parentage. She read in Malcom willis's book, that only one dog need to be a sable to produce a sable but 2 dogs would have to carry the black to produce blacks. The owner is convinced her dog doesn't carry the black. So she questioning where it has come from.

The owner of the stud cannot get her head around the colours that they have produced. which were Black/sable. Black, Sable and Black/Tan.
There was no way another male got to this bitch.
The owner of the bitch is quite prepared for DNA testing. Question.. Do all the pups have to be DNA'd. Or can just the parents and one or two of the pups be DNA'd eg; the sable and the black.
 

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Yes you can have 2 different fathers to a litter. And I think this is at the back of the stud dogs owners mind. As the owner of the bitch kept a black son from the first mating. The bitch's owner had him away from her at all times. Under no circumstances did he get to her.
 

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Hummm... there is this site I find interesting. 4GSD - Coat Colours
Example: A Sable dog can be either Homozygous or Heterozygous Sable. This means it either carries 1 or 2 copies of the sable gene. If the Sable dog had, for example, a sable parent and a Saddle Back parent, that dog would carry both of those genes - Sable, and Saddle back. The dog would appear Sable since that is the dominant gene. This dog in turn could produce both Sables and Saddle backs, since he carries both genes.
For a Sable dog to be Homozygous Sable, it would have to have 2 copies of the sable gene. This would mean the dog would have had 2 Sable parents that both passed the sable gene on to it, and also that this dog can ONLY produce sables.
The Solid Pattern:


The solid pattern is a recessive gene, meaning it is only expressed when the dog has 2 copies of the gene. Dogs that are sable, black and tan, etc, can carry this gene. Two solid patterned dogs bred together can only produce solid patterned pups. There can be solid blacks, blues, or livers.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
At first..The Stud own was querying both the sable and the black, she contacted a third person, who has a sable bitch, that the male went to, and they got sables puppies. So now she thinks she understands that..But she querying now the black. Where did that come from...:crazy:
So hopefully somebody here can help, and then I can show her.
 

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Well first of all, is the bitch sable or black? If she produced sable pups and black pups with a black and tan stud, the bitch MUST be sable with black recessive. And yes in order to produce Black puppies the Black and Tan stud must also be black recessive.

How does the Stud Owner know that the Stud does not carry black? Is he's been genetically tested and does not carry the gene for black then there must be another dog in the mix.

If the only other dog of concern is an all black male, the only puppies it could have sired would be the black or the sable puppies. Those would need to be tested for sure. Although (And I could be wrong) I think that when parentage of a litter is contested the whole litter needs to be tested for registration.
 

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This is also an excellent resource that shows the matrix for color genetics.
Ehret German Shepherds - Canine Genetics

The combo we'd be looking at on this chart would be Sable (aw+a) with Black and Tan (as+a) which would produce sable, black and tan, and black puppies.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
this is the photo of the mum


she looks black..is registered as black, but when fur is parted you can see the sable, around her knickers and neck.
No the stud dog has not been tested.
 

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She certainly does look black (which is a little worrisome to me since I'm not sure I've ever seen a sable shepherd that dark), but sable is dominate over black, so in order for her to produce sable puppies with a Black and tan, she HAS to be genetically sable.

Her previous sable puppies could be attributed to the white masking sable dog. If she is genetically black, then there is a real pickle because there has to be more than 1 father to the litter and one must be genetically sable. Very tricky. I would test the whole litter.
 

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She is very pretty! :)

However it's still very difficult to tell without seeing her is it's actually sable or if it's jsut bleed through. Some genetically black dogs have some tan or red that shows through. Not really questioning, but pointing out that their can be a number of factors. Are we sure that the stud is black and tan? Some sable dogs look very much like black and tan dogs...

My advice would still be to test the whole litter. Then you will know for sure if she is genetically sable or not. If the sable pups do belong to the Black and tan stud, then she has to be sable genetically.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The stud dog owner is ok about the sable in the litter now, as she's heard that only one need to carry it... But where would the black come from:confused:
as she read that both need to carry it...
 
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