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Discussion Starter #1
I have one puppy out of a litter of four that had a distinctly different coat color than the rest that has become more distinct as he ages. They are now five weeks old and I want a second opinion on whether this puppy would be considered liver and tan or is simply a light colored black and tan. Sire is black and tan and Dam is black and red. Let me know what you think.
 

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From the picture, the pup seems to have a black nose and dark eyes so I would say it is just another variation of the black/tan.
 

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I agree with Lisa, that puppy is definitely not liver. Liver affects all the black in the dog so even their nose will be liver. The pup just looks to be a different shade, now blue is the dilution of black but he still doesn't look like that in this picture. As their noses will be a blue/grey.

These are liver/tan pups:

 

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What color are the parents and grand parents? Possible Sable?? Or just a different marking of Black and Tan.
 

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are you sure about the parents .

different size, bone, coat and colour?

could there be a dilution factor for blue be present?

black and tan is black and tan whether it is mahogany, "red" , fawn - brown .

is dna parentage check available to you? females can produce offspring from more than one sire in one litter.
 

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My guess is black and tan. Could be the others will be blanket black and tans, and this will be a long coat saddle-back.
 

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My guess is black and tan. Could be the others will be blanket black and tans, and this will be a long coat saddle-back.
That's a good observation, with my pups I did notice the long coat pups took on a bit of a different tinge to their coats until they puppy fuzz left. It wasn't as notable as here though.
 

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I sort of thought sable also . That is why I recommended checking paternity on this pup.

easy to do . Get the DNA kit for paternity https://vetdnacenter.com

you will submit a cheek swab for expected sire , actual dam , and subject pup.

if there is another male hanging around take his sample as well.

state your intentions to the lab so that you get the appropriate number of kits

while you are at it you may as well get their DM kits

they will then either include or exclude the male as being the sire .

as far as sable the OP stated both parents were black and tan .

it doesn't matter if the black and tan has any sable ancestry . HE / SHE is not sable
so can NOT produce sable .

the pup looks so different from the littermates - reminds me of a cuckoo in the next

nice looking pup though
 

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I am 100% certain the sire was the only sire present when the dam was is estrus so there is no possibility of multiple sires. Two of the pups look like they will inherit the dam's long coat and two others look like they will have sire's short coat, but the other long coated puppy is just as black as the other puppies and both mom and dad. I agree the nose pigment and eye color don't align with liver coated puppies and that's what is throwing me off. There is no sable in either the Sire or Dam's pedigree. All are registered as black and tan or black and red. This pair has had two previous litters and I have never seen this color variation before. I'm thinking I'm just going to have to DNA test everyone. Here are some pictures of sire and dam so you have more to go on. The last picture shows them together so you can see the difference in pigment.
 

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The top photo the puppy does look liver, but he doesn't have the other liver features. How old are they?
 

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sire and dam certainly look like well kept healthy animals .

does look like some dilution factor - either liver or blue .

I think the Vet diagnostics link I provided can also do "colour"

pups do look nice and healthy also.
 

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sire and dam certainly look like well kept healthy animals .

does look like some dilution factor - either liver or blue .

I think the Vet diagnostics link I provided can also do "colour"

pups do look nice and healthy also.

Thank you! I am definitely going to do some genetic testing on the sire, dam and pups. I have been meaning to anyway and this puppy just gives me an excuse to do so. Again thank you for the input! I'll post the results of the DNA test as soon as it comes in.
 

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not necessarily.


After this, he went completely blonde, with only a small chevron of black on his tail.


and then eventually his adult color
Do you have a picture to share that actually shows the whole pattern when young? That picture doesn't disprove the stripe thing, I would be super fascinated to see because every sable I've seen has had it.
 
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