[Emoore]

i was disagreeing with the "treat them like humans". i tried to state that
in the begining of the post. the human athletes eat, sleep, train, recover
but because of body size they can't do the same things.

Dog shouldn't eat well, train hard, rest, and recover?

 

[FG167]

I would just monitor him, supplement if you want (personal pref - I do it) and if it gives you peace of mind, have his joints x-rayed. I think only basing the enjoyable things to do with your dog that someone could find a reason it's "unsafe" in almost any sport.

I don't think being made for it is necessary if you are both having a good time (both!) and you don't expect to be the best of the best (yes, Border's are better). My lab is LAZY and we do it because we both have fun. I don't care about anything else. And winning isn't everything - maybe you'll "only" title - who cares.

I've seen GSD's do extremely well and do it for years, and other dogs "made for it" get hurt - and I don't mean an injury like fell off something or hit something - sometimes things just happen. Have fun!!!

 

[KZoppa]

i dont participate in any of the dogs sports but if i find the right dog, you better believe i'll give it a shot. I'd be interested in flyball and agility and obedience. maybe even Schulzhund. really as long as you're both having fun, its another bonding experience. Have fun with it. If you win YAY!!! if you dont you still win because you got to do it with your dog.

 

[Mrs.K]

You know, you need to know what is best for you and the dog. As long as agility is fun for you and your dog, why not?

i am so tired of people saying "You can't do this or that because your dog is not bred for it."

Guess what, you can! You can train a draft horse in classical dressage and teach them everything a high profile classical dressage horse can do. It will never look as graceful and they will never be able to compete to the same level as a high profile dressage horse but you can do it and thats the point.

And by the way, over here there are draft horse races, so they can race!

You can have a big GSD do agility, you may not be as fast, it may not be as graceful but you can do it.

As long as YOU and YOUR DOG have fun doing it, do it!

Some people just don't understand that it's not all about competing. Sometimes people do things just because they are fun.

 

[dogmama]

Probably mostly show line GSD's. All of the working line dogs should be able to jump - as they have to in Sch.

Would be fun to see a BC jump the Sch jumps wouldn't it?

Or practice on the bite work? GSD's can do both very well!

I have a friend (Kathy Lena) who put a Sch3 on her BC. The biggest criticism was that the bite work appeared to be more play to the BC than actual bite work. But, she did it.

 

[MaggieRoseLee]

I feel if I keep my GSD's lean and fit. WIth lots of exercise outside of agility training, they'll do just fine. Structurally they are built athletically, like a 'dog' is supposed to be.

I believe dogs like (for instance) Bassett Hounds/Corgis with the shorter legs and longer backs STRUCTUALLY could have more issues. They aren't built like the typical 'dog' shape that evolution has proved holds up over time in the wild (talking like fox/coyote/wolf type of leg/back ratio...)

CLEARLY a larger dog can't land and turn the same as a BC that weighs 45 pounds. But that doesn't mean they aren't strong enough and agilie enough to run agility well for a 75 pound GSD.

Physically (and I haven't seen these dogs break down, just struggle) it seems to me that the shoulder height of a dog has more real influence on the course. The tunnels/chute are usually only 24" high, so a long tunnel for a 28" dog is alot of hunched over dog.

Think for ANY dog doing ANY dog sport, key is to get a dog that is structually built well, and if not then know the limitations you may have. Keeping them lean, fit and generally healthy. Then go out and have FUN!

 

[AgileGSD]

Probably mostly show line GSD's. All of the working line dogs should be able to jump - as they have to in Sch.

Would be fun to see a BC jump the Sch jumps wouldn't it?

Or practice on the bite work? GSD's can do both very well!

BC ScH Obedience

Same dog as above in protection

SchH2 BC Protection work

 

[Mrs.K]

That girl needs to learn how to throw... seriously... :help:

The BC is doing great though.

 

[Jax08]

I don't see why a GSD would break down doing agility, regardless of whether a show line or a working line. My girl is tall at almost 25" and has no problem on any obstacle. I think the key is conditioning. You can't take any dog out and expect them to compete without training and building muscle, regardless of breed.

 

[Liesje]

i was disagreeing with the "treat them like humans". i tried to state that
in the begining of the post. the human athletes eat, sleep, train, recover
but because of body size they can't do the same things.

I was a gymnast, so not exactly a large athlete, and my GSDs are still smaller and lighter than I am, plus they train far less and get far more recovery time.

 

[Liesje]

Anyway, I don't think one breed is necessarily better than any other. I think a lot of top agility people will go for a BC or BC mix. When you want to compete nationally and internationally, nothing wrong with sticking with what you know and are familiar with. Which goes to show how much is training. I think many of the top agility trainers could take a nice GSD and do very well.

I did read an article recently which an agility trainer was describing the best structure for an agility dog. Not any breed in particular but just what to look for over all. One thing I remember was wanting a dog that is short through the loin and has a strong rear. It's not just about overall length or proportion; note that she compares two different dogs both square but one better (based on her criteria) than the other.

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/10/helen-king-on-structure-evaluation/


The issue is not just size and structure, but proper technique. Look at all the work MRL has done with Glory as a puppy, doing all that flatwork and teaching the dog the *correct* techniques for jumping, so the dog can collect and make fast turns into and off of obstacles. The ability to DO the obstacle is not what makes a dog fast or slow, it's the ability to maintain the speed and drive and work the course in the shortest distances.

Right now in SchH several club members are teaching their dogs to jump for the retrieves and wonder why their dog will brush or push of the jump every time. I'm trying to help them understand that it's not just about whether the dog *can* jump, but the dog must learn to make that jump with the correct technique. I trained my dog to jump like MRL showed me which can be boring at first since the dog starts jumping a height he can easily walk over, but now he is the most consistent dog in the club, he can go back and forth over the 1m jump all day and never touch it.

 

[AgileGSD]

Anyway, I don't think one breed is necessarily better than any other. I think a lot of top agility people will go for a BC or BC mix. When you want to compete nationally and internationally, nothing wrong with sticking with what you know and are familiar with. Which goes to show how much is training. I think many of the top agility trainers could take a nice GSD and do very well.

I think most top agility people buy performance bred BCs for the same reason that top SchH people buy working/sport bred GSDs or Mals. Buying a dog from a breed and lines that are proven in your sport can certainly tip the odds in your favor. That said, I have seen people go buy the most off the wall BC they can find, thinking they will automatically get a great agility dog. Too often they end up with a dog that they can rarely even Q with. Not all handlers are cut out for training and handling such intense, driven dogs.

And of come people seem to do well with whatever they train though. And there are other breeds that can be very good at agility. Last year a Terv won at the USDAA National over the top BCs. And the AKC Agility Invitational tends to have a much wider range of breeds competing for the top placements.

The issue is not just size and structure, but proper technique. Look at all the work MRL has done with Glory as a puppy, doing all that flatwork and teaching the dog the *correct* techniques for jumping, so the dog can collect and make fast turns into and off of obstacles. The ability to DO the obstacle is not what makes a dog fast or slow, it's the ability to maintain the speed and drive and work the course in the shortest distances.

Very true. There are dogs which are greater than the sum of their parts, so to speak. Dogs who structurally aren't ideal but have the drive and enthusiasm to excel. And there are dogs with great structure who will never be top level competition dogs. And dogs with outstanding potential in every way, except training/handling. I think the biggest things that will help anyone be more successful would be working on drive building, teaching solid foundation skills, teaching your dog body awareness through tricks and keeping your dog in good physical shape (lean and muscular).

 

[MaggieRoseLee]

The issue is not just size and structure, but proper technique. Look at all the work MRL has done with Glory as a puppy, doing all that flatwork and teaching the dog the *correct* techniques for jumping, so the dog can collect and make fast turns into and off of obstacles. The ability to DO the obstacle is not what makes a dog fast or slow, it's the ability to maintain the speed and drive and work the course in the shortest distances.

Right now in SchH several club members are teaching their dogs to jump for the retrieves and wonder why their dog will brush or push of the jump every time. I'm trying to help them understand that it's not just about whether the dog *can* jump, but the dog must learn to make that jump with the correct technique. I trained my dog to jump like MRL showed me which can be boring at first since the dog starts jumping a height he can easily walk over, but now he is the most consistent dog in the club, he can go back and forth over the 1m jump all day and never touch it.

How much am I loving to hear that! :thumbup:

It's the same for many in the agility world, they just don't get that 'jumping' isn't just something all our dogs do well naturally. Sure they can all fling themselves over an obstacle. But to really understand and jump well is a skill they have to learn.

 

[wildo]

This thread kinda scares me. I never considered that agility could be harmful to the dog- or at the very least- it could speed issues that would otherwise not be seen for years to come. I know there is some debate about whether HD is genetic or not, but it seems a lot of shepherds do exhibit hip problems. My GSD is not really of great lines to speak of (I got her from a pet store) so it's hard to say what we will face down the line. I have been giving her a supplement (Springtime Inc., Longevity) since she was four (now she's just shy of 5) and feed her a decent quality food (Nutro Natural Choice- Large Breed Adult). I've not yet had her hips xrayed, as my vet said he would need to put her under anesthesia to get a clear pic. We decided this wasn't worth while until at least five years of age.

Anyway- I got a little worried reading this thread and the implication that doing agility could wear out the dog quicker and speed joint/bone problems. I assume all is well in moderation, but I was ready to dive in head first. I suppose there's no reason to get crazy about the sport if it's going to be at the expense of my dog's health.

Thoughts? Can someone help me to understand the risks involved?

 

[wildo]

Forgot to mention- Pimg is 74.8lbs, tall, and lean. She's almost certainly of American lines as she's very square at her hips (no slope in her back) and is heavy (by normal German standards). She's not overweight in the slightest though- she's very trim and lean. I mention this because she has a lot of mass to move around for agility work...

 

[MaggieRoseLee]

This thread kinda scares me. I never considered that agility could be harmful to the dog- or at the very least- it could speed issues that would otherwise not be seen for years to come. I know there is some debate about whether HD is genetic or not, but it seems a lot of shepherds do exhibit hip problems. My GSD is not really of great lines to speak of (I got her from a pet store) so it's hard to say what we will face down the line. I have been giving her a supplement (Springtime Inc., Longevity) since she was four (now she's just shy of 5) and feed her a decent quality food (Nutro Natural Choice- Large Breed Adult). I've not yet had her hips xrayed, as my vet said he would need to put her under anesthesia to get a clear pic. We decided this wasn't worth while until at least five years of age.

Anyway- I got a little worried reading this thread and the implication that doing agility could wear out the dog quicker and speed joint/bone problems. I assume all is well in moderation, but I was ready to dive in head first. I suppose there's no reason to get crazy about the sport if it's going to be at the expense of my dog's health.

Thoughts? Can someone help me to understand the risks involved?

Hip Dysplasia IS genetic, please be assured of that. Apparently we can affect our dogs GENETIC weakness by things we do the first year (under exercising? poor nutrition? OVER feeding?). I definitely don't think agility can make our dogs get hip dysplasia.

I also don't compare our GSD's to the 'draft horses' of the dog world which would really place alot of extra force on their bodies when performing agility. I'd be more likely to say that St Bernards/Mastiffs/Great Danes would hold the body type of the 'draft' . GSD's WERE meant to be 'working dogs' with the running and turning involved in herding and their other skills.

That said, if your breeder is truly breeding for GSD's that are tall and way over standard FOR OUR BREED, and way over the weight FOR OUR BREED then you actually DO have a dog that is out of what the breed was meant for and there may be more extreme forces going on their bodies.

Most of us get our dogs hips done as part of their spay/neuter due to the anestheisia. Personally, if your dog is LEAN and fit....... and almost 5 years old with no signs of joint problems, I'd say you would be good to go to leap right into agility with the normal concerns of ANY dog sport you would participate in.

 

[wildo]

Thanks for this, MRL. I got home for lunch today and measured Pimg. She comes in at 26" high at the top of the shoulder blades, and 28" long from front of breastbone to rear of pelvis. According to the AKC, the ideal proportion is 8.5/10 (height/length), or .85. Pimg comes in at .92, so she's not of the "ideal" proportion- but she's not that far out. Then again, they do state that bitches should be 22-24", so in that respect- she's quite tall. But with all that- I've always heard that American GSDs were bigger than German GSDs- especially the females. I can't find any official website to back that claim up though.

But that's neither here nor there. I think given that she hasn't shown any visible signs of joint issues (and she's a jumper! she chases imaginary [and a few real] squirrels up trees all day long!) and given that she seems to enjoy agility- I think I will go forward with giving it a shot. We can always back out if signs start to rise up. And at that- she should probably be due for a hip xray/teeth cleaning this coming year anyway. I can get more solid evidence there from the hip xrays...

Thanks for the info!