[Bug]

Hi there,

I just got my pup's Wisdom Panel results and noticed that it said that she has a saddle pattern. I emailed them about it because she looks sable / liver bicolor to me, and I attached their response below. It's hard for me to believe at 10 months all that lives is going to recede. So I was wondering when they normally change colors from black and tan bicolor to saddled? I thought it would happen by the time their adult coat comes in, although I know color still changes some after that. Also any other thoughts on this?

 

[Jax08]

No sable there. I would say bicolor from the tar heels but the genetics came back for black and tan?? bicolor is a whole seperate gene. She's definitely a liver. Where are the specific results? Not just there summary?

 

[Bug]

Her results came back as liver. They mentioned it at the end. They didn't give me her specific genotype even though I requested it ? however, on my Coat Color and Genetics Facebook page someone shed some light on the situation.
There was a a studies that suggested that saddle needs to have a modifier gene for it to be expressed. Apparently in the Tibetan Spaniel they almost all have the saddle gene, but some have a Black and Tan (bicolor) phenotype. Pretty interesting!!

" An additional 95 dogs from breeds that never have the saddle tan phenotype have all three of the possible RALY genotypes. We suggest that a multi-gene interaction involving ASIP, RALY, MC1R, DEFB103, and a yet-unidentified modifier gene is required for expression of saddle tan."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23519866/

Still curious about when color stops changing in GSDs tho ?

 

[Jax08]

Whats her pedigree? Pretty easy to figure out from that.

 

[Bug]

I don't have a pedigree for her as she is mixed ): all i know is that she's 37.5% GSD, 25 % husky, 25% lab, and 12.5% "middle eastern / african breed"

 

[Jax08]

Since she's mixed, you can't go by German Shepherd genes alone. Bicolor is a gene. Liver is a gene. But she could have gotten the brown color from the Lab, which is different than the liver gene. The pattern could come from anywhere.

 

[Bug]

Since she's mixed, you can't go by German Shepherd genes alone. Bicolor is a gene. Liver is a gene. But she could have gotten the brown color from the Lab, which is different than the liver gene. The pattern could come from anywhere.

Chocolate labs and liver GSDs both just have bb instead of Bb. just breed terminology differences. same with black and tan. in GSDs that means saddled but in others it means bicolor. and in GSDs they call agouti "sable". I was wondering if anyone has had a dog change that dramatically at this age because her coat does not look like its creeping tan to me. and i believe you have confirmed that she is bicolor and not creeping tan like was suggested by the Wisdom Panel customer service rep

 

[Jax08]

Bicolor is it's own gene in the German Shepherd breed. They do not change from bicolor to saddle. I did not confirm anything other than that. And since she's a mix, you don't know where the pattern is coming from.

 

[Sabis mom]

Both of these dogs should be genetically black and tan, note the difference in the amount of black.

 

[Bug]

Bicolor is it's own gene in the German Shepherd breed. They do not change from bicolor to saddle. I did not confirm anything other than that. And since she's a mix, you don't know where the pattern is coming from.

correct, but they can have creeping tan which is the saddle gene just expressed differently. which phenotypically looks similar to bicolor. basically i was wondering if she is creeping tan that will stay the same or turn into a saddle, OR bicolor. but judging by her small eyebrows and lack of significant tan around the muzzle at this age, i would assume shes bicolor. i was wondering if anyone's creeping tan pups ever had so little tan. which is what wisdom panel was suggesting. i found the answer to my question though so we are good

 

[Bug]

Both of these dogs should be genetically black and tan, note the difference in the amount of black.
View attachment 510133

View attachment 510135

lovely! the bottom looks like it is creeping tan (still genetically "black and tan"). do you have any face pictures?

 

[Sabis mom]

lovely! the bottom looks like it is creeping tan (still genetically "black and tan"). do you have any face pictures?

Two quick points the dogs in the previous pics are 10 months and 10 years. The darker one being the older.
The following pics are all black and tan. The black face female was about 8?, the male was 13, and the light face is my currently nearly 8. Color continues to change throughout the life of the dog. Both darker dogs lightened as they aged.

 

[Bug]

Two quick points the dogs in the previous pics are 10 months and 10 years. The darker one being the older.
The following pics are all black and tan. The black face female was about 8?, the male was 13, and the light face is my currently nearly 8. Color continues to change throughout the life of the dog. Both darker dogs lightened as they aged.

View attachment 510145

View attachment 510147

View attachment 510149

Thank you! Thats actually super helpful. Its kind of hard to tell how much tan my pup has on her because her chest is almost completely white thanks to white spotting. But these pictures make it clear that she doesnt have enough tan on her face for her to be creeping tan even if she does lighten up a bit. Your pups are beautiful btw very cool how much they change over time.

 

[Sabis mom]

I am not sure what you mean when you say creeping tan. In general black and tan German Shepherds are split into blanket backs and saddle backs, both of which are descriptive terms. Genetically black and tan is black and tan. Of the three dogs I pictured two would have been described as blanket backs, however my male who had more black had much more noticeable tan on his face and much cleaner markings overall. Up until age four or so my darker female had almost no tan noticeable on her face, and she was the darkest of the three as a pup.
My lightest one had clearly started to lose the black by about 4 months and pretty much by ten months was the color she would be. She has some definite "sable" patches and a weird dark stripe down her back, all of which adds to the confusion for people.

As your dog is a mix, it is a bit more difficult to say what the color will do. @Jax08, knows much more about genetics then I do but your dog is cute and I hope this helps a bit.

 

[Jax08]

Simple answer...at 10 months old, IF your dog had been a purebred, any fading back of the black would be just about done.

Since yours is not a purebred, and could have patterns associated with other breeds, the question in relation to a German Shepherd may not even be relevant. But, IMO, your dog will not have any fade back of the liver color to show more tan.