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Discussion Starter #1
So recently I have been noticing a trend with a few bite sports where the dogs are automatically outing once the helper/decoy locks up. Is this a desired behavior? What are your reasons for doing this/not doing this?


I will start. One of the groups I train with said yes because "that's the way the Germans have done it". Well that's not reason enough for me. I refuse to have my dogs auto out for one reason. Yes I train sport but I try to keep my dogs as "real" as possible. I look at it like this. If my dog bites a real bad guy and he stops moving then my dog outs, then it gives the bad guy a chance/reason to start running again. That means my dog is going to engage again and take a second bite causing more damage that my dog and myself are liable for. Plus at that point if a guy is running away then he is no longer a threat and now I'm really screwed. So I will not teach an auto out.
 

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I hate to see it. Right up there with a dog who tucks his forelegs in from being "swept" too much. :)
People have told me they would rather have a too quick, clean out than have slow outs.....
 

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Don't really like it, prefer the dog to fight until I say out. In fact I think I'd rather have a dog that is like "aus!" (count one one thousand) and the dog outs, than a dog who is thinking about outing and waiting for the helper to act like he's locked up. You can always work on a faster/cleaner out on command. In what context is the dog outing before the command useful or desireable? I believe in some sports (SDA?) the dog MUST fight until the out command is given. Similarly in SDA when doing the alerting exercises the dog MUST remain barking/alerting until he is recalled (even if the decoy is walking away and going back into a blind). You turn the dog on, you turn the dog off. Makes sense to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Don't really like it, prefer the dog to fight until I say out. In fact I think I'd rather have a dog that is like "aus!" (count one one thousand) and the dog outs, than a dog who is thinking about outing and waiting for the helper to act like he's locked up. You can always work on a faster/cleaner out on command. In what context is the dog outing before the command useful or desireable? I believe in some sports (SDA?) the dog MUST fight until the out command is given. Similarly in SDA when doing the alerting exercises the dog MUST remain barking/alerting until he is recalled (even if the decoy is walking away and going back into a blind). You turn the dog on, you turn the dog off. Makes sense to me.


You are correct. This weekend I saw a couple dogs lose points for outing too early. I'm with you, I don't want the dog to anticipate the out. I'm just seeing this auto out stuff everywhere lately so I thought I would ask.
 

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I do believe, a new rule discourages this for IPO as well... The rules state there must be a "transition" (my interpretation: fighting) phase between the lock-up and the out.

I like scrappy dogs personally. I like a dog that might be a bit dirty and slow to out but is fighting till the end. I like a dog that acts as if he's thinking "Locking up and freezing ain't going to get you out of this one buddy..." :) I usually have him fight for a while. NO out. Escape, fight, drive, fight. Then maybe I'll out. If my dog starts having outing problems we might work on that specifically but I *personally* wouldn't teach auto out to a dog just because he has outing trouble.

But I have seen auto outs taught on certain dogs because their handlers preferred it that way. If those handlers were still at our club I might have asked them why, but now my curiosity is piqued. I'd love to hear someone's reasons for being pro auto-out
 

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I would think the auto-out would be helpful points-wise for a dog who regrips/chews/thrashes or performs other points losing behaviors after the lock-up but before the out.
 

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This will now lose you points in IPO. I believe it's been reworded that your dog should not out until given the command.
 

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You are correct. This weekend I saw a couple dogs lose points for outing too early. I'm with you, I don't want the dog to anticipate the out. I'm just seeing this auto out stuff everywhere lately so I thought I would ask.
Yes, even though you lose points per the rules, people are still training it.

And maybe sometimes it is just the dog?
 

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We have several members that train the automatic out. They would rather loose a few points for too quick an out than DQ for no out. One very strong club dog DQed last year at the se regional for not outing. I am sure that was very aggrevating after all that training.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Even an auto out is no guarantee that the dog will out in a stressful situation though. I saw a dog with an auto out get dq'd for still not outing. I try (key word is try:D) and train my dog to out weather the helper is locked up or not. When I say out I mean out darn it. I think too often people only work outs when helper is locked up so when stressed the dog feels it's still "in the fight" and wont out. I don't it's just a thought.
 

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This will now lose you points in IPO. I believe it's been reworded that your dog should not out until given the command.
Actually an auto-out is allowed with no point deduction. I believe where you are going to lose any points on the auto-out is when the dog outs before the helper has completely finished locking up. All it calls for is a brief transition period between helper locking up and dog outing.
 

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I don't get how auto-outs negate a DQ for not outing....why not just train the dog to out clean on command?
 

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I don't get how auto-outs negate a DQ for not outing....why not just train the dog to out clean on command?
I think it is a risk for some dogs who are very dominant. They may out clean most of the time but why risk a regional or national level championship if they are stellar everywhere else.
 

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My dog was not outing without being checked, then he started auto outing as soon as the helper locked up.
I don't want the auto out. The following weekend we went to a new field w/ new helper he's never seen, he won't out....so back to correcting the out.
Cleaned it up and now he is outing fine, but he fights and the helper(s) has a hard time often locking up with him/which causes a bit of conflict when I command him to out, there still may be some movement because the helper can't hold the sleeve still.
Because I know my dog will 'test' a (new to him) helper, it is a fine line....he may not out when we trial unless he's been worked on that helper a couple of times. Hopefully consistent training will fix that so we won't have an issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Yup, that's what happened to the dog I saw. The helper didn't lock up all the way because the dog kept fighting and the dog didn't out. It was on the last bite too. All the dog needed to do was out and she would have had a nice 3 score. This dog normally auto outs but.... When I have a hard fighting dog on my sleeve I grab with both hands. I'm not above doing that to get as still as possible but not all helpers will. I also change the angle of the bite bar, suck into myself as much as possible and stick my leg out just a bit to make it as uncomfortable for the dog as I can. Now a bite suit is a whole other story.
 

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I think it is a risk for some dogs who are very dominant. They may out clean most of the time but why risk a regional or national level championship if they are stellar everywhere else.
Does not outing = dominant dogs? I guess most of the ones I've seen that was not the case, there were other issues that were being channeled into the dog not outing and hectic stuff going on. Also I've seen with some really large, strong dogs that if the helper does not or cannot lock up it's sometimes a lost cause.
 
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