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Discussion Starter #21
OK. Time to redirect the thread, we are getting a bit off-topic. Let's get off the ears as it does not apply to "our" breed.
Let me ask this, should the government be able to tell me how to train my dog? As an example should forced retrieves be ILLEGAL? After all it is not medically necessary for a dog to pick up a dumbell, it is only necessary for a "stupid sport". So if my dog endures some discomfort during the course of training this exercise, should the government, or other agency, step in and "save" my dog?

Another question for you. What constitutes "abuse"? If you give me some honest opinions then I too will opine.
 

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Having just spent the past 7 years in the EU. I am all for the US following suit on many things.
Docking and cropping, I have yet to find ONE ethical reason to have it done.
E-collars. If they can train their dogs that well without using one, what does that say about the US and so many clubs using them?
I am for them only when used properly and specific reasons. Not to make a dog sit faster.
Most do not spay or neuter their animals and yet you hear less about them having animal control problems. So mandatory spay and neuter will not help.
 

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hmm...what constitutes abuse?

I don't think you will find a clear cut answer. AS you've seen from other threads some ppl think prongs and e-collars are abuse. I think if they are then they aren't being used correctly. I think I get much better results from Jax with clicker training but I also think there are issues that I will use an e-collar for. What is abuse to me may not be to you so how can that question be answered.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
@3k9mom,

Sorry I must have been writing my post when you posted so I did not respond to you.

But yes. That is one passsage that concerns me. The fact of the matter is that "unnecessary" is completly subjective. What you may think is "unnecessary" I find to be completly "necessary". So who determines what is "unnecessary"? Please see my above post about forced retrieves.
 

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Originally Posted By: KCandMace
Docking and cropping, I have yet to find ONE ethical reason to have it done.
But who should decide what ethical and whats not? If its done humanely I see no need for government intereference. After all we do live in the USA where "freedom" (and I use that term very lightly, as our "freedoms" are being taken away little by little) is valued. The governments bans vets from docking/cropping people will do it on their own with rusty kitchen shears.
 

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Originally Posted By: GSDluver4lyfe
Originally Posted By: KCandMace
Docking and cropping, I have yet to find ONE ethical reason to have it done.
But who should decide what ethical and whats not? If its done humanely I see no need for government intereference. After all we do live in the USA where "freedom" (and I use that term very lightly, as our "freedoms" are being taken away little by little) is valued. The governments bans vets from docking/cropping people will do it on their own with rusty kitchen shears.
Ethics is relative to the norms of a society. Change the norm and you've changed the ethics. If it's no longer "cool" then the rusty kitchen shears won't be an issue.
 

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I haven't seen any E.U law related pets operated in Turkey so far. However, some people after seeing my minpin reacted like how come I could have cropped ears and docked her tail. I said these were done when she was baby. Then they continued like'' nonetheless it is cruel''. Yes people tend to think that it is cruel in Europe. I'm happy that we are not a part of E.U. If you ask me, if the cropping and docking are done in experienced hands, it is not a problem. I think it would make me probably sad to send my pup for ear cropping. That is why I've chosen shepherds, no cosmetic problems:)
 

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Originally Posted By: Zahnburg
Originally Posted By: Jax08hmm...what constitutes abuse?

What is abuse to me may not be to you so how can that question be answered.
My point exactly! So how can "abuse" be legislated?
It used to be that you could beat the
out of your kids, and it was acceptable. Or your wife. Or your slave.

Not any longer. Our society does take a stand. It does develop norms, and these do change over time. Sometimes, they evolve slowly; sometimes, the change comes rather radically. But it happens.

But to say that society doesn't have the right to define abuse, well I don't buy it. You can say my examples are irrelevant because they are all human beings, not animals. But in the 1850s, there were a lot of people who said society didn't think their slaves were fully human either...and if you asked some of them in private, probably a lot wouldn't even concede that they thought their slaves were even 3/5ths human, as the government allotted.


"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." The question is, who defines the justice? I say, the one who was denied it. What was once considered acceptable in many arenas is now considered abuse. Animal abuse laws are being strengthened in many areas, and written in other areas for the first time.

Ultimately, the community defines what is acceptable behavior. Not any of us individually, and that's a good thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Mods,

Don't get trigger-happy and lock this thread. Granted it started to go a little out-of-bounds but I think it has returned nicely to being on-topic and civil.
There is actual dialog taking place and I believe that this is a very infomative and educational discussion.
I believe that many folks visit this forum to learn, and learning is impossible without taking into consideration oppossing view-points, so flow with it a little. Please?
(Look, I put in a smiley-face and everything)
 

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Discussion Starter #36
3k9,

Is it a good thing that people who do not understand dogs and training are able to dictate to me what I do, and how I train with my own dog?

So answer my previous question, and I have some additional questions. Am I "abusing" my dog by making forced retrieves or using a riding crop to make faster sits (or using an e-collar, or pinch collar or check collar)? Is it "abusive" that I "force" him to fight with the helper? Is it "abusive" that the helper hits him with a stick? Is it "abusive" that he lives in a kennel? Is it "abusive" that I use a crate when he is in my vehicle? Is it "abusive" that I demand that he work for me?
 

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Since you put this in the General Info section...

Please explain forced retrieves for us Non-Schutzhund people and how you are using a riding crop your dog. I know the real purpose behind a riding crop, and how to properly use it on a horse, so I'd love to hear how you are using it on a dog.
 

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COMMUNITY DECIDING ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR ??? good thing??
maybe want to think about that.If anyone decides the future of their dog based ONLY on opinions from this board -sorry can't take any farther!!
 

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I have a general philosophical problem with the idea of an animal needing to be surgically altered in order to conform to the breed standard.
 

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Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI have a general philosophical problem with the idea of an animal needing to be surgically altered in order to conform to the breed standard.
Me too!!
 
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