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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
There was just a segment on a woman who kept a pack of 9 wolf-dogs in her backyard in a pen. They eventually killed her, but guess that's kind of obvious from the title of the show.

ETA I shouldn't post before my brain kicks in. My question was: They had a woman saying that it's not true that crossing wolves with dogs makes a good pet. I know that is true, but she also said that you see it in all cross-breeds. That if you have a dog that is a mix of say, retriever and working breeds that the dog will be confused and have behavior problems. I've never heard of anything like that and just doesn't make sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
the woman who said that was the Executive Director of Wildlife Science Center. She just said "If she was a female wolf, the second one of them made a dominant move she would have grabbed that animal, thrown him to the ground and bitten his nose. Since she didn't, that proves that she didn't know anything about the behaviors of these animals" That isn't an exact quote, but close enough - I can't type that fast.
But a scientist saying that wolves do alpha rolls?
It's very sad, they keep showing all the dead animals stacked in a pile/int he back of a truck. Another case of the animals paying the price for human stupidity.
 

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Wolves DO in fact do alpha rolls. Pack life has a structure for a reason and though supposed experts say alpha rolls dont work, in a pack structure in the wild, they're golden. If something happens and other body language ques dont get the message across such as growling, barking, snapping then an alpha roll gets pulled out of the hat so to speak.

in regards to the mixed breeds get confused statement.... she's full of it. dogs lean towards the more dominant breed in their genetics in most cases but will have quirks of the other breed or breeds. Dogs dont know they're mixed. Yes, they'll have drives instinctive to the breeds they're mixed with that can occassionally conflict but whats dominant will usually be what they go with instinctively.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I know that wolves can alpha roll, but the advice that the woman should have done it to her wolf dog?? she was basically saying that the woman would have been perfectly safe if she had only rolled the hybrids.
I see that I said it wrong in my post... again, shouldn't post before my brain is engaged. There are very few instances where wolves need to do rolls in a stable pack.

The real world of a wolf pack is an entirely different universe than a pack of 9 hybrids penned in a suburban backyard. A human is naturally weaker than a canine, esp a pack of them. Suggesting that she alpha-roll a dominate hybrid in the middle of the pack seems completely asinine.
 

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I saw that episode.

I think it's all BS. They make everything sound worse than it really is (not about the poor lady's death) because they need to boost the show and make it more dramatic.

My neighbor has a Malamute/Wolf mix, it is very well behaved and he is sweet.

Do you remeber Cesar Millan's episode with 2 Wolf hybrids? They had some bad behaviors so Cesar stepped it and fixed them. With the proper training and a lower percentage of wolf in them, they make good pets.
 

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Being an executive of a Wildlife Science Center doesn't mean she's a scientist or an expert on wolves/dogs. The comment she made about mixed breeds being "confused" sort of makes me doubt her knowledge. That has got to be one of the silliest things I've heard in a long time. Really I don't believe that hybrids are "confused" either, more that people who own them are confused as to what to expect. Hybrids in general make very poor pets but luckily, the majority of so-called hybrids people keep as pets have been misrepresented. Most are just Northern breed crosses or extremely low percentage hybrids.

For factual information on hybrids I always suggest Wolf Park's page:

Articles: Wolf Park - Wolf Hybrid Articles

Info (not everything works because they are currently updating): Wolf Park - America's Other Controversial Canine, the Wolf Hybrid
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I was just floored, and it wasn't just a NyQuil haze.. I can't imagine anyone who knows ANY dog behavior to go into a pen containing nine canines (any type) that have lived as a pack and alpha roll one of them. Even people who believe that a daily roll is important to keeping your dog in his place have never said go into a pack and roll the first dog that gets pushy. Any pack of carnivores will fight to protect one of their own. As soon as she was on the ground the pack drive would have taken over and that would be the end. Obviously, that is the outcome in this story as well.

Guesstimating from the size they looked in the pics, I'd say that they weighed in at 50 lbs easily. The "alpha dog" looked maybe 80? I mentioned the woman's title since they put her forward as an expert on the behavior of wolves. I hope that no one decides to follow her advice.

Note: I'm not wanting a pro/con debate on alpha rolls. I do debate the sanity of wading into a pack and trying to gain/keep control of a pack in that manner. From the things said by the owner's friends, she never tried to be "in charge," proudly pointing out which dog was the Alpha of the pack. It seems that she believed that they would accept her into the family as another submissive female and that she could live within the pack.
If that is the case, 1) she is crazy and 2) the idea that she roll the alpha hybrid is even crazier. She would be no match for him physically and her trying to suddenly push her way would result in a fight that she could never hope to win. Not to mention that it would be only a matter of time before the rest of the pack joined in. There was also evidence that in the time leading up to her death that she had become afraid of the pack. Yet another ingredient in the disaster recipe.

On the "cross breeds are confused" notes, I actually laughed out loud. Maybe it was the NyQuil, but I had an image of a GSD/Husky cross pacing in circles "Do I want to herd? Do I want to run? Am I a husky? Am I a shepherd?" Perhaps laying on the couch talking about his identity issues and how, as a puppy, he never fit in with the other dogs at the park....
I CAN see a bit where there could be more conflict in a dog/wolf hybrid. The natural instincts of a wolf would be more fearful of humans, esp if the dam was a higher content or otherwise unnervy, while the dog side would have a natural instinct to be more trusting of humans. It's not entirely nature, but those basic fears are partially genetic and so opposite that it could make for a more skittish dog, not necessarily "confused"

So, in the end, I don't think it matters really if the animals were wolf-hybrids or mixes of the northern breeds. They had lived their entire lives as a pack, though with some human interaction. They were allowed to make their own rules and develop their own community. When it came to the end, they reacted as a pack - whether they viewed her as a human outsider or as another canine who tried to take over the pack is a moot point.
 

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HAHA!!!! The image of a husky/GSD mix laying on a couch in a therapists office whining and crying about how horrible his childhood was because the other puppies made fun of him and how he was picked on in high school and how his mother always 'dogged' on him. haha funny. love it.

There is a guy in england who i would count on more for his knowledge on wolves than anything. He lives and eats with the wolves. everything. I mean this guy gets down and dirty in the bloody fray with a kill and all. He has a knowledge of pack order that most experts say they have but dont fully comprehend. I'll see if i can find his name. It was really late when i watched the show so i was zoning in and out but i love wolves (favorite animal followed by tigers) so naturally it caught my attention.
 

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I was just floored, and it wasn't just a NyQuil haze.. I can't imagine anyone who knows ANY dog behavior to go into a pen containing nine canines (any type) that have lived as a pack and alpha roll one of them. Even people who believe that a daily roll is important to keeping your dog in his place have never said go into a pack and roll the first dog that gets pushy. Any pack of carnivores will fight to protect one of their own. As soon as she was on the ground the pack drive would have taken over and that would be the end. Obviously, that is the outcome in this story as well.

Guesstimating from the size they looked in the pics, I'd say that they weighed in at 50 lbs easily. The "alpha dog" looked maybe 80? I mentioned the woman's title since they put her forward as an expert on the behavior of wolves. I hope that no one decides to follow her advice.

Note: I'm not wanting a pro/con debate on alpha rolls. I do debate the sanity of wading into a pack and trying to gain/keep control of a pack in that manner. From the things said by the owner's friends, she never tried to be "in charge," proudly pointing out which dog was the Alpha of the pack. It seems that she believed that they would accept her into the family as another submissive female and that she could live within the pack.
If that is the case, 1) she is crazy and 2) the idea that she roll the alpha hybrid is even crazier. She would be no match for him physically and her trying to suddenly push her way would result in a fight that she could never hope to win. Not to mention that it would be only a matter of time before the rest of the pack joined in. There was also evidence that in the time leading up to her death that she had become afraid of the pack. Yet another ingredient in the disaster recipe.

I believe they said that she started to fear them after her friend was dragged around by her hair by one or two of them. She stopped cleaning their enviroment and she stopped giving them fresh water.

On the "cross breeds are confused" notes, I actually laughed out loud. Maybe it was the NyQuil, but I had an image of a GSD/Husky cross pacing in circles "Do I want to herd? Do I want to run? Am I a husky? Am I a shepherd?" Perhaps laying on the couch talking about his identity issues and how, as a puppy, he never fit in with the other dogs at the park....
I CAN see a bit where there could be more conflict in a dog/wolf hybrid. The natural instincts of a wolf would be more fearful of humans, esp if the dam was a higher content or otherwise unnervy, while the dog side would have a natural instinct to be more trusting of humans. It's not entirely nature, but those basic fears are partially genetic and so opposite that it could make for a more skittish dog, not necessarily "confused"

I pictured my GSD/Husky mix as I read this and I giggled to myself.

So, in the end, I don't think it matters really if the animals were wolf-hybrids or mixes of the northern breeds. They had lived their entire lives as a pack, though with some human interaction. They were allowed to make their own rules and develop their own community. When it came to the end, they reacted as a pack - whether they viewed her as a human outsider or as another canine who tried to take over the pack is a moot point.
I agree with this last paragraph.

She let them be the leaders, she gave them control, I dont think she spent enough individual time with each wolf/dog and in the end she got what was coming to her.
 

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i now i lady who has three wolf/shepherd mix and they are the sweetest dogs i have ever met. but she is dominant, you can tell when she gos in their kennel they all come up tot her and sit before her. she has never laid a hand on them, but is very confident and stern with her movements and words
 

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There was just a segment on a woman who kept a pack of 9 wolf-dogs in her backyard in a pen. They eventually killed her, but guess that's kind of obvious from the title of the show.

ETA I shouldn't post before my brain kicks in. My question was: They had a woman saying that it's not true that crossing wolves with dogs makes a good pet. I know that is true, but she also said that you see it in all cross-breeds. That if you have a dog that is a mix of say, retriever and working breeds that the dog will be confused and have behavior problems. I've never heard of anything like that and just doesn't make sense.
I met one instance of a cross between a Border Collie and a Golden Retriever in Petsmart that completely contradicts what was said about mixes. This dog had the biddability of a really good Border Collie with an unusually calm, steady disposition. The dog's temperament was one of the finest I have seen. His owner said that as an eight week old puppy he had pretty well taught himself to heel off-lead. His temperament was magnificent--no "conflicts," every aspect of his personality seemed to harmonize with the others. He even had a handsome, harmonious appearance, sort of like a medium, small German shepherd cross. My guess would be that when we see crosses with poor temperaments, the poor temperament is inherited from one or both of the full-breed parents.
 

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Every time I try to watch this show my heart starts beating real fast and I get a chill up my spine. It's the perfect show to watch for upcoming Halloween.

You know, I was watching football last night and NC State has a real wolf as a mascot. He looked just like my friend's Malamute/Wolf, except in color.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I was picturing the dog on R. Lee Emory's therapist couch. lol
NyQuil, a fever, and no sleep can give some vivid imagery, I tell ya that
 

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She let them be the leaders, she gave them control, I dont think she spent enough individual time with each wolf/dog and in the end she got what was coming to her.
It likely had nothing to do with them being "in control" or not. Captive wolves can and do act predatory towards humans in the wrong situation. Or if my understanding is correct and she "alpha rolled" one of them, she went into the group and started a fight by getting physical with one of the animals. Regardless of what people want believe about alpha rolls or physical correction in a dog/wolf's natural setting, it would never, ever happen out of the blue. Dogs and wolves communicate through posturing and threat displays before anything turns physical. If an attack happens out of the blue, no one can be surprised when the animal gets defensive.

Hard to say for sure, I didn't even see the program but nothing being posted here really screams out that the owner was killed in a struggle for dominance.

i now i lady who has three wolf/shepherd mix and they are the sweetest dogs i have ever met. but she is dominant, you can tell when she gos in their kennel they all come up tot her and sit before her. she has never laid a hand on them, but is very confident and stern with her movements and words
There is every good chance that this person's "sweetest dogs" have absolutely no wolf in them at all. The misrepresentation of domestic dogs as wolf hybrids is extremely widespread. Most people who believe they have a wolf hybrid have nice northern breed mixes. And that is certainly for the best, although it does tend to give people the idea that wolf hybrids can make really good pets "if they're raised right".

I CAN see a bit where there could be more conflict in a dog/wolf hybrid. The natural instincts of a wolf would be more fearful of humans, esp if the dam was a higher content or otherwise unnervy, while the dog side would have a natural instinct to be more trusting of humans.
That seems believable but plenty of domestic dogs are very suspicious, nervous and/or untrustworthy around strangers. Some breeds have been selected to be standoffish or even aggressive towards strangers. It would seem that the average dog doesn't have a natural instinct to be trusting of humans. More often than not puppies who are raised without much human contact are naturally fearful of people. What domestic dogs and all domestic animals do have is a tendency to retain juvenile characteristics, to easily learn to accept handling, to be less reactive, easily startled or panicked. These things give them a higher threshold of the fight or flight instinct and a higher bite threshold. By crossing wild and domestic animals, you will often see some more "wild behavior traits" return. These can include a lower threshold before the animal's fight or flight response kicks in, increased neophobia, increased resistance to being restrained/handled and a lower bite threshold. I don't think such animals are "conflicted" though, they are just reacting the way instinct tells them to react. Interestingly, selective breeding has given us dog breeds who maintain more or less juvenile behaviors and more or less wild behaviors depending on the jobs they were selected for. Comparatively, most sporting breeds retain a lot more juvenile characteristics and herding breeds, more wild ones. Although compared to a captive wolf or coyote, both retain more juvenile traits.
 

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Why is everyone surprised that there would be bad information in a show that airs on Animal Planet? This is the wonderful network that brings us great shows such as Dogs 101.
 

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The problem with this show is i think it has a political agenda peta's. i think they want to paint everyone who has these animals as a bunch of loons, who are alienated from society nor can they cope with it. including repile owners or anyone with exotic pets. i watch this show every week and it honestly concerns me, not that i own any exotic animals but not everyone who owns a exotic animal are humanizing their exotic pets or social misfits. infact i would not own a wild cat, wolf or any reptiles, but i have studied what it would take and decided its more work then i want to deal with, and for most people thats were it should end right there, but there are a few people who can and do just fine. i do not want animal groups or politicians deciding whats good for me and what is not.

Ashley
 

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The problem with this show is i think it has a political agenda peta's. i think they want to paint everyone who has these animals as a bunch of loons, who are alienated from society nor can they cope with it. including repile owners or anyone with exotic pets. i watch this show every week and it honestly concerns me, not that i own any exotic animals but not everyone who owns a exotic animal are humanizing their exotic pets or social misfits. infact i would not own a wild cat, wolf or any reptiles, but i have studied what it would take and decided its more work then i want to deal with, and for most people thats were it should end right there, but there are a few people who can and do just fine. i do not want animal groups or politicians deciding whats good for me and what is not.
I agree with this. Haven't seen the show or many other recent AP shows but the channel does seem to have a stronger and stronger AR slant. I caught one of the "animal hoarding" programs and it concerned me in much the same way. And this is the channel that at one point opted to feature a city with BSL for a season of their animal cops shows, complete with AC officers justifying why APBTs (even baby ones) had to be killed.
 

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This whole topic irritates me. In my county a few years back this yayhoo has a bunch of wild things, and his bear gets out and attacks the lady next door. Her daughter, I think a pre-teen had to lure the bear off her mother with balogna.

So we cry, why can this guy OWN a bear???

And we find out, to have AS MANY wild things as you want, all that is required is a permit that costs 40$. If you want a kennel license, it costs $50.

There are NO regulations as to the care or confinement of the beasts.

Ok, so all the AR groups are trying to push legislation through to go after dog owners and breeders, and nobody does anything about wild critters.

Wild things are better left in the wild.

They have limit laws for dogs, not so your wild things.
They have dangerous dog laws, not so for wild things.
 

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Every time I try to watch this show my heart starts beating real fast and I get a chill up my spine. It's the perfect show to watch for upcoming Halloween.

You know, I was watching football last night and NC State has a real wolf as a mascot. He looked just like my friend's Malamute/Wolf, except in color.
NC's mascot is not a real wolf. Its a Tamaskan, a wolf like breed without the wolf. I know of the people who own the dog too. I am on a forum and it was a big issue for them.
 

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This whole topic irritates me. In my county a few years back this yayhoo has a bunch of wild things, and his bear gets out and attacks the lady next door. Her daughter, I think a pre-teen had to lure the bear off her mother with balogna.

So we cry, why can this guy OWN a bear???

And we find out, to have AS MANY wild things as you want, all that is required is a permit that costs 40$. If you want a kennel license, it costs $50.

There are NO regulations as to the care or confinement of the beasts.

Ok, so all the AR groups are trying to push legislation through to go after dog owners and breeders, and nobody does anything about wild critters.

Wild things are better left in the wild.

They have limit laws for dogs, not so your wild things.
They have dangerous dog laws, not so for wild things.
Many states do have laws about owning wildlife. There are different levels of permits and you are supposed to follow USDA guidelines on housing & care. I agree though that people should not be able to own wild animals. Most people can't even care for dogs & cats properly. :( There do need to be stricter laws and it needs to be every state.

Kristina
 
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