An alpha roll is a forced activity. If he's happily rolling over and you're not forcing him there and to stay there physically, then there's nothing wrong and it's not an alpha roll.
Alpharoll by mistake?
I just read something that makes me wonder if I've been Alpha rolling Lycan inadvertantly. Basically, I play with him by getting on his back and making raspberry's on his chest. He waves his paws and makes "woo-woo" noises and seems perfectly happy, but I was reading leerburg's site and it appears I've been engaging in a very dangerous alpha roll. It's hard to think of it as being dangerous, however, since he seems to love it. Should I cease and desist, or can I keep doing it since Lycan and I both enjoy the farting noise game.
Jelpy
Jelpy
1 - 20 of 108 Posts
That sounds right to me. When Niko and Rosa play, they often get each other on their backs. They don't usually give raspberries though...An alpha roll is a forced activity. If he's happily rolling over and you're not forcing him there and to stay there physically, then there's nothing wrong and it's not an alpha roll.
But that's an interesting mental picture.
Bet you get a mouthful of hair, eh? Don't do it immediately after applying chapstick!
Alpha rolls are not really dangerous if done properly. Lately there’s been a fascist campaign by a bunch of snobs that don’t know much about canines that claim that Alpha rolls are inherently dangerous. Anyone that has any significant knowledge of canines know that alpha rolls are part of normal healthy pack hierarchy (whether it be dogs at the dog park or wolves in the wild). Alpha rolls is one of the main things that keeps peace within the pack. If you have a pack of dogs and if they don’t exhibit proper social behavior like Alpha rolls then you probably have a very dangerous situation ( like sitting on a keg of dynamite). Alpha rolls done properly do no physical or mental harm; it’s a way of establishing rank without becoming violent. Alpha roll is an alpha roll whether it be voluntary or by force. I’ve been raising GSD for 40 years and have observed wolves and coyotes in the wild for 40 years and can tell you for a fact that alpha rolls are natural and part of healthy socialization.I just read something that makes me wonder.... but I was reading leerburg's site and it appears I've been engaging in a very dangerous alpha roll. It's hard to think of it as being dangerous, however, since he seems to love it.
Almost every dog would prefer to be top dog. But not every dog can be top dog when there is a group. So it’s important to have a pack hierarchy to keep order and prevent violence. Alpha rolls are as dangerous and is harmful as saluting in the military. Alpha rolls serves a very similar function in a dog pack as saluting in the military. Saluting helps keep order and establish rank in the military; it does not do physical or psychological harm to soldiers.
People that insist that alpha rolls are inherently dangerous, don’t know what they are talking about and are bullies. I’ve been alpha rolling dogs for over 40 years and not a single dog has been hurt physically or mentally; quite on the contrary it has helped keep the peace and keep order which has helped prevent injury to the dogs, other animals and humans. If it’s done properly; as you say the dogs typically enjoy it. I’ve seen wolves and coyotes do it in the wild. In the dog park and at home I have seen dogs alpha roll each other much like a wrestling game. People that say that Alpha Rolls are inherently harmful and do not happen in nature; are lying and do not know what they are talking about.
People should know they can’t believe everything they read (whether it be in a book or on the Internet) see on TV, hear, etc.…
Alpha Rolls being harmful is an urban legend.
So should we believe you doggone?
I don't believe an alpha roll is the same as saluting.
Many people who do this may be in the fit of anger ~ then it is in a harmful way or for the wrong reason. Especially if you have a dog with an unsteady temperament and doesn't recover from things easily, it can do much damage to a dog with no confidence that is reacting out of fear(then gets alpha-rolled).
As you wrote, bullies ~ those are the ones that maybe people are saying it IS harmful.
There may be times and places for it(though I don't know when), but just to do it to show who's boss is not fair to the dog.
So it really isn't urban legend if some of the ones doing it are harming their dogs, mentally.
My pack is fine without me showing them who is the boss by alpha rolling them regulary to keep the structure.
I don't believe an alpha roll is the same as saluting.
Many people who do this may be in the fit of anger ~ then it is in a harmful way or for the wrong reason. Especially if you have a dog with an unsteady temperament and doesn't recover from things easily, it can do much damage to a dog with no confidence that is reacting out of fear(then gets alpha-rolled).
As you wrote, bullies ~ those are the ones that maybe people are saying it IS harmful.
There may be times and places for it(though I don't know when), but just to do it to show who's boss is not fair to the dog.
So it really isn't urban legend if some of the ones doing it are harming their dogs, mentally.
My pack is fine without me showing them who is the boss by alpha rolling them regulary to keep the structure.
This is true; you can't believe everything someone spouts out and must use your own common sense to weed through other's verbal nonsense.People should know they can’t believe everything they read (whether it be in a book or on the Internet)
I think when the alpha roll is considered dangerous is when you are trying to force it on an aggressive or dominant dog.
If you dog is happily rolling over for you to give raspberries then you aren't doing anything dangerous or damaging. If they start fighting you then it is time to stop doing it and go heavier on the NILIF and other training.
I think there is a major difference between utilizing an alpha roll as a correction and having your dog roll over on his/her back for a belly rub, or play (blowing raspberries).
Hondo is a 92lb GSD. One of his favorite things to do is sit by my feet while I'm sitting outside on a rocker. I roll him over with my foot and rub my foot up and down his belly while I rock.
Hondo is a 92lb GSD. One of his favorite things to do is sit by my feet while I'm sitting outside on a rocker. I roll him over with my foot and rub my foot up and down his belly while I rock.
You’re in denial. If you don’t salute properly people can get injured also. If you snap to salute and you’re not a proper distance away from someone you could poke the person you are saluting in the eye or yourself in the eye. But that doesn’t mean that saluting is inherently dangerous.So should we believe you doggone?
I don't believe an alpha roll is the same as saluting.
Many people who do this may be in the fit of anger ~ then it is in a harmful way or for the wrong reason. Especially if you have a dog with an unsteady temperament and doesn't recover from things easily, it can do much damage to a dog with no confidence that is reacting out of fear(then gets alpha-rolled).
As you wrote, bullies ~ those are the ones that maybe people are saying it IS harmful.
There may be times and places for it(though I don't know when), but just to do it to show who's boss is not fair to the dog.
So it really isn't urban legend if some of the ones doing it are harming their dogs, mentally.
My pack is fine without me showing them who is the boss by alpha rolling them regulary to keep the structure.
I think things need to be kept in perspective and that all angles should be taken into consideration. Analogy. Regulators think that requiring airliners and airline passengers to keep babies in safety seats increases safety. In shallow analysis of the statistics when you’re in an airplane crash the survival rate is better with the safety seat. However with deeper analysis requiring airliners and airline passengers to keep babies in safety seats would actually likely increase the number of injuries and deaths. You have to analyze and consider all of the causes and effects. The increased costs to airline passengers they would have to pay for extra seats for their infants would be cost prohibitive for many people; so many parents would end up traveling in a less safe method; such as by automobile, bus or train; where injury and fatality is more likely. So legislation that is under the guise of improving safety; is likely to decrease public safety.
I’ve heard many people claim that they don’t need to Alpha roll their dog. However the vast majority of them are unruly and unsafe and dangerous. Not all dogs are the same so not all dogs require the same type of training and discipline. I think you are likely to be like many others and are simply in denial.
I’ve had many idiots in denial, lecture me about using alpha rolls, and the use of shock collars. Yet my dog is relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave; yet their dogs are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…. Yet almost every time their dog is getting into trouble they blame someone else instead of their dog and themselves. These idiots like to make up stupid rules; like balls and Frisbees shouldn’t be at the dog park; dogs shouldn’t run, bark and wrestle at a dog park. They insist that no other dogs go near their dog when their dog is drinking; because they allow their dog to be water aggressive; since they are denial they tried to shift the blame onto other people so it’s your fault if their dog becomes water aggressive. These types of people are nurturing bad behavior and are enabling dangerous situations.
That’s one of the more important times to use a alpha roll. There are always some risks and dangers. Sure there is a remote possibility you might get injured or the dog might get injured doing an alpha roll; however I think it’s more dangerous to allow a dog to be excessively aggressive or dominant. There are always some exceptions to the rule; you probably don’t want to alpha roll a senior or injured dog. A dog that is fearful and/or insecure it best to do it in a gentle but secure fashion.I think when the alpha roll is considered dangerous is when you are trying to force it on an aggressive or dominant dog.
Every dog is different and every situation is different. So what technique and method is best for a given situation and or dog can very dramatically. And often several different techniques will work just as well. There are particular situations and dogs that certain techniques work better or are outright required to have a decent outcome.
I use the NILIF method myself however I think it’s dangerous to use it in many cases when you have an aggressive or dominant dog. When a dog is becoming aggressive and a dangerous situation is developing I think it’s best to nip in the bud rather than to let things escalate while you’re trying to negotiate with the dog. I see people trying to leave the dog park for up to an hour at a time because they are negotiating with their dog. I’ve seen people get attacked and I’ve seen dogs get attacked because the owners refuse to properly dominate and discipline their dog. I’ve seen dogs become dangerously dominant and dangerously aggressive because their owners refuse to use proper techniques and instead insist on using only “politically correct” techniques. Several dogs have been killed at local dog parks because owners insisted on only using “politically correct” techniques. I saw a mastiff bite a dog and a human because the owner of the mastiff insisted on babying his dog with “politically correct” techniques; thus he allowed and enabled his dog to be water aggressive, toy aggressive, and food aggressive. The dog was somewhat mentally stable when his wife came alone to the dog park because she did not enable the dominant and aggressive behavior and because she did not baby the dog and she did not try to blame other people for her dogs problems and she allowed other people to discipline her dog. However every time that the husband was a long (his dog was mentally unstable); the husband would not allow other people to discipline his dog and he would not discipline the dog himself; he always blamed other people for his dog’s excessively aggressive and dominant behavior. He was allowing and enabling a 150 pound dog to be excessively aggressive and dominant. I tried to educate the husband however he was stubborn and snobbish and would not listen. The last time his dog attacked another dog it dog also attacked a person and he started yelling and cussing at the person that his dog attacked and he tried to blame the person; that’s when I jumped in and started yelling at the mastiff owner and told him he was wrong and the attack was all his fault. He was still in denial and yelling and cussing at the victim and me; however when I threatened to call the cops and see what their opinion was; he shut up. I haven’t seen him since. After he left, several people came up and patted me on the back and said it was about time that someone stood up to him.
Thanks for the feedback. I was concerned because it was sounding as if any time you were leaning over your dog it could be considered an alpha roll and trigger an attack. It didn't SEEM like that would be an issue-Lycan is such a clown, he flops over like a sack of potatos at the drop of a hat and he loves to be played with. Um...(scuff scuff) I know the blowing raspberries on his tummy sounds silly but he really loves it.
Jelpy
Jelpy
Do you have a link to the article? It sounds a little exaggerated. Leaning over a dog is considered an act of trying to dominate but with most pets, it isn't a reason to be concerned. I would never do it to a strange dog that you do not know but is certainly ok with Lycan who you know accepts it and doesn't see it as a challenge.I was concerned because it was sounding as if any time you were leaning over your dog it could be considered an alpha roll and trigger an attack.
I can link to the page:
Leerburg | Dog Bites and Dog Attacks
Note - there are some graphic photos in this article
Jean, Admin
There's a whole slew of emails about dog bites and they respond to the letter they get.
Jelpy
Leerburg | Dog Bites and Dog Attacks
Note - there are some graphic photos in this article
Jean, Admin
There's a whole slew of emails about dog bites and they respond to the letter they get.
Jelpy
I can literally lay on top of my 7 yr old dog while she is on her back with her legs in the air. Often, if I am laying on the floor, she will let me lay my head on her chest and rub her belly. I don't look at it as me trying to dominate her, I see it as she trusts me and knows nothing bad is going to happen to her if she is in that position.Thanks for the feedback. I was concerned because it was sounding as if any time you were leaning over your dog it could be considered an alpha roll and trigger an attack. It didn't SEEM like that would be an issue-Lycan is such a clown, he flops over like a sack of potatos at the drop of a hat and he loves to be played with. Um...(scuff scuff) I know the blowing raspberries on his tummy sounds silly but he really loves it.
Jelpy
Why is it that most people who use examples of wolves in the wild to explain their training techniques (alpha roll) almost always mention that they also use prongs, shock collars etc?
To treat a dog like a wolf may or may not make sense, but if that's the choice people make I would think they would be more intuned to all the dynamics of a wolf pack....and amazingly....
The alpha in a wolf pack hardly ever resorts to putting shock collars on his pack. Oh sure maybe he'll think about buying a shock collar while he's at the wolf supply house, but then he remembers he doesn't have thumbs so signing the credit card bill becomes an issue.
He must alas, resort to the alpha roll. No prongs, no leash pops, no shock collars....go figure.
I'm thinking gently flipping a puppy over and giving it raspberries on it's belly is probably more wolf like than pop, shock and roll methods. Just a thought.
To treat a dog like a wolf may or may not make sense, but if that's the choice people make I would think they would be more intuned to all the dynamics of a wolf pack....and amazingly....
The alpha in a wolf pack hardly ever resorts to putting shock collars on his pack. Oh sure maybe he'll think about buying a shock collar while he's at the wolf supply house, but then he remembers he doesn't have thumbs so signing the credit card bill becomes an issue.
He must alas, resort to the alpha roll. No prongs, no leash pops, no shock collars....go figure.I'm thinking gently flipping a puppy over and giving it raspberries on it's belly is probably more wolf like than pop, shock and roll methods. Just a thought.
:rofl:The alpha in a wolf pack hardly ever resorts to putting shock collars on his pack. Oh sure maybe he'll think about buying a shock collar while he's at the wolf supply house, but then he remembers he doesn't have thumbs so signing the credit card bill becomes an issue.
jelpy
Ok, here I am at work, being a little sneaky and reading through this thread and then....BAM! I bust out laughing out loud and blow my entire cover.... :spittingcoffee:....
The alpha in a wolf pack hardly ever resorts to putting shock collars on his pack. Oh sure maybe he'll think about buying a shock collar while he's at the wolf supply house, but then he remembers he doesn't have thumbs so signing the credit card bill becomes an issue.
Jelpy, please continue to have fun with your pup in ANY way that the two of you continue to enjoy. I love your word picture.
Leaning over a dog could be a dominant position, but socialize your puppy to accept ANYTHING from you -- sounds like you have started already. I can play with my dogs feet, or tail, or ears, or any other part of their body. Yesterday at class Babsy scootched over and pulled something off the ground and was eating it, I went inside her mouth and pulled out a beggin strip, I looked at it, and as it is at the home of a good friend and trainer, I gave it back to Babsy -- not worried that it was tainted in any way. However your dog's disposition is, you should be allowed to do anything with them.
Doggone. I could alpha roll any of my dogs. I never have. Why? Because I am not a dog or a wolf or a coyote and my dogs are smart enough to know that. I do not want to be alpha. The alpha pack member can be ousted out of the position when they are old or weak or sick. Since I am getting pretty close to that, I'd rather not rule my dogs by brute force, especially since it is entirely unnecessary.
Leaning over a dog could be a dominant position, but socialize your puppy to accept ANYTHING from you -- sounds like you have started already. I can play with my dogs feet, or tail, or ears, or any other part of their body. Yesterday at class Babsy scootched over and pulled something off the ground and was eating it, I went inside her mouth and pulled out a beggin strip, I looked at it, and as it is at the home of a good friend and trainer, I gave it back to Babsy -- not worried that it was tainted in any way. However your dog's disposition is, you should be allowed to do anything with them.
Doggone. I could alpha roll any of my dogs. I never have. Why? Because I am not a dog or a wolf or a coyote and my dogs are smart enough to know that. I do not want to be alpha. The alpha pack member can be ousted out of the position when they are old or weak or sick. Since I am getting pretty close to that, I'd rather not rule my dogs by brute force, especially since it is entirely unnecessary.
the OP was talking about blowing rasberries on the pups belly.You’re in denial. If you don’t salute properly people can get injured also. If you snap to salute and you’re not a proper distance away from someone you could poke the person you are saluting in the eye or yourself in the eye. But that doesn’t mean that saluting is inherently dangerous.
I think things need to be kept in perspective and that all angles should be taken into consideration. Analogy. Regulators think that requiring airliners and airline passengers to keep babies in safety seats increases safety. In shallow analysis of the statistics when you’re in an airplane crash the survival rate is better with the safety seat. However with deeper analysis requiring airliners and airline passengers to keep babies in safety seats would actually likely increase the number of injuries and deaths. You have to analyze and consider all of the causes and effects. The increased costs to airline passengers they would have to pay for extra seats for their infants would be cost prohibitive for many people; so many parents would end up traveling in a less safe method; such as by automobile, bus or train; where injury and fatality is more likely. So legislation that is under the guise of improving safety; is likely to decrease public safety.
I’ve heard many people claim that they don’t need to Alpha roll their dog. However the vast majority of them are unruly and unsafe and dangerous. Not all dogs are the same so not all dogs require the same type of training and discipline. I think you are likely to be like many others and are simply in denial.
I’ve had many idiots in denial, lecture me about using alpha rolls, and the use of shock collars. Yet my dog is relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave; yet their dogs are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…. Yet almost every time their dog is getting into trouble they blame someone else instead of their dog and themselves. These idiots like to make up stupid rules; like balls and Frisbees shouldn’t be at the dog park; dogs shouldn’t run, bark and wrestle at a dog park. They insist that no other dogs go near their dog when their dog is drinking; because they allow their dog to be water aggressive; since they are denial they tried to shift the blame onto other people so it’s your fault if their dog becomes water aggressive. These types of people are nurturing bad behavior and are enabling dangerous situations.
Doggone, you sure do like to go off on a tangent. Would an alpha roll fix the issues many dogs have, I doubt it....
I am not in denial, not an idiot, don't shift blame and don't enable.
My dogs are very happy and get along fine within their pack.
I don't go to dog parks because of what you decribed above, not worth the hassle to encounter those situations.
I'd type more to your wonderful diatribe, but the board rules state we shouldn't be distrespectful to other posters.
Quote by DogGone: "I’ve heard many people claim that they don’t need to Alpha roll their dog. However the vast majority of them are unruly and unsafe and dangerous. Not all dogs are the same so not all dogs require the same type of training and discipline. I think you are likely to be like many others and are simply in denial.
I’ve had many idiots in denial, lecture me about using alpha rolls, and the use of shock collars. Yet my dog is relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave; yet their dogs are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…. Yet almost every time their dog is getting into trouble they blame someone else instead of their dog and themselves. These idiots like to make up stupid rules; like balls and Frisbees shouldn’t be at the dog park; dogs shouldn’t run, bark and wrestle at a dog park. They insist that no other dogs go near their dog when their dog is drinking; because they allow their dog to be water aggressive; since they are denial they tried to shift the blame onto other people so it’s your fault if their dog becomes water aggressive. These types of people are nurturing bad behavior and are enabling dangerous situations."
Ever think that maybe your dog is "relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave" inspite of poor training methods. Not everyone who does not use shock collars or alpha rolls have dogs that are "food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…."
I think that dogs have different levels of temperament, some have serious issues, others require different management, but to suggest that people who use positive reinforcement and training techniques that do not include physically challenging and overpowering the dog or aids in correcting/punishing the dog, are in denial and have dogs that have serious issues is just wrong.
People who use any method of training can screw that method up, whether the method includes shocking or alpha rolling, or clickers, or praise and treats. So some people trying to do positive reinforcement mess that up, just as people who use alpha rolls mess that up. It has something to do with the handler's ability to do the right thing and the right time, their patience, their persistance.
I’ve had many idiots in denial, lecture me about using alpha rolls, and the use of shock collars. Yet my dog is relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave; yet their dogs are food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…. Yet almost every time their dog is getting into trouble they blame someone else instead of their dog and themselves. These idiots like to make up stupid rules; like balls and Frisbees shouldn’t be at the dog park; dogs shouldn’t run, bark and wrestle at a dog park. They insist that no other dogs go near their dog when their dog is drinking; because they allow their dog to be water aggressive; since they are denial they tried to shift the blame onto other people so it’s your fault if their dog becomes water aggressive. These types of people are nurturing bad behavior and are enabling dangerous situations."
Ever think that maybe your dog is "relatively obedient, intelligent, mentally stable, friendly, and brave" inspite of poor training methods. Not everyone who does not use shock collars or alpha rolls have dogs that are "food/water/toy aggressive, run away, disobedient, fearful, dominant, runs out in traffic, chases traffic and pedestrians, chases animals without permission, etc…."
I think that dogs have different levels of temperament, some have serious issues, others require different management, but to suggest that people who use positive reinforcement and training techniques that do not include physically challenging and overpowering the dog or aids in correcting/punishing the dog, are in denial and have dogs that have serious issues is just wrong.
People who use any method of training can screw that method up, whether the method includes shocking or alpha rolling, or clickers, or praise and treats. So some people trying to do positive reinforcement mess that up, just as people who use alpha rolls mess that up. It has something to do with the handler's ability to do the right thing and the right time, their patience, their persistance.
well, to clear up one thing: I was semi worried because Lycan is 2 1/2 years old and tips the scale at about 90 pounds now that he's on a raw diet. He's still very puppy like, though. Well, puppy like if the puppy was 2 1/2 years old with big clown feet.
jelpy
jelpy
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