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She's nervous about posting it. And given an experience I had when I posted pictures from a friend's litter of puppies, and posters found out Mom wasn't OFA'd yet, well, I can't say I blame her.

This happened on another website, not this one. But I was held personally responsible for the pups' mom not being OFA'd or titled... :mad:
 

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She's nervous about posting it. And given an experience I had when I posted pictures from a friend's litter of puppies, and posters found out Mom wasn't OFA'd yet, well, I can't say I blame her.

This happened on another website, not this one. But I was held personally responsible for the pups' mom not being OFA'd or titled... :mad:
Well if you have nothing to hide....

I don't agree with blaming others but people should not be breeding dogs without health testing.
And buyers who buy from untested parents have zero room to complain.
Females with lesser or no titles sometimes just means a timing thing. Not an excuse just a reality.
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Well, if no one wants to add to the list, then I'll just assume I have it all listed, or people just don't want to provide any more. That's fine. First take the route of least resistance then move towards more of real-time experience.
This is the very first thing I was told 18 years ago when I started researching what it took to get a GOOD german shepherd that might be breeding potential.

"What is WRONG with your dog?" Yes, you need to know your dog's good traits but until you can objectively sit down with someone and explain every fault that your dog has, without being offended, you aren't remotely ready to breed. Let alone ready to compete.

People will talk about your dog. They will mention his good points but they will even more loudly point out his flaws. And many of them won't be nearly as nice as the people here have been. Often, going to a working club, they can be even more skeptical of "unusually colored dogs" mostly because they come into it with the idea that the dog was likely not from a responsible breeder. And, again, they can be mean about it.

That thick skin is the first, and most important, step in becoming a breeder. Second is the ability to separate your feelings and love from your dog from your breeding. Third is an objective outlook at the idea of breeding and where a particular dog falls in the spectrum.
Well the thing is that I never said I will not admit to her "faults", but I won't accept them when they are baseless and unreasoned, without evidence to prove it 100% as we have concluded, not having a DNA testing we don't know, and for the matter of breeding qualities, I haven't even begun to try and title her, I'm here to ask how to do it, so obviously without testing her I don't know her faults to begin with, I can only note the ones I personally noticed, which is pretty few, I don't consider myself a great trainer, so who am I to judge really? I'm here to find qualified judgement, not baseless skepticism presuming she is NOT breeding worthy simply because of her coat/mixed and me not being versed in breeding/titling; it doesn't mean she doesn't have the potential, I just need to go and get the testing and trials done, why comment on me not being knowledgeable breeding and attributed to her not being breeding worthy? There's just no relevance between the two factors. It just comes down to ME having to figure out how to see if she can get titled that comes down to proving what she is actually worth.

I just wanted to point out, that Schutzhund/IPO titles ARE Minimum requirements. Schutzhund was designed as a Breed Test, meaning that only the dogs that earned a minimum of SchH I would be considered breedworthy. This is still a requirement in the SV. That is why so many of the pedigrees of German Showlines and Working lines have nothing BUT SchH titled dogs in their pedigree - without titling, the dogs did not qualify for breeding, and their offspring would not be allowed to be registered.

So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.
EUROPAMEISTER isn't a minimum requirement.

If you NEED a list of things to determine if your dog is breedworthy, then YOU probably are not ready to be breeding. And I don't mean that flippantly. I mean that breeding is more art than science based on knowledge and experience.....once you acquire knowledge THROUGH experience you will begin to understand what you don't understand and can't be explained in words.
Get out there and do some high level training and experience some quality breeding dogs....then you have a start of at least comparing your dog to something tangible.
So, logically, one cannot learn to get ready to be a breeder? Sorry, logic falls short here. Isn't what I'm asking exactly to do with just trying to compile a list (like a shopping list), then going out in the real world to EXPERIENCE and learn in real-time. If you read the whole OP, I specifically stated this:
I would like to know immediate actions I can take and straight forward steps to take rather than discussing the nature of breeding like choosing complimentary mates and temperament, feel free to bring it up if need be, but I mainly want to locate the/a source(s) where I can go and gain all the necessary information by going to the access point so to speak.

I am good at learning as I observe in real-time, but of course first gather all the necessary concepts and groundwork of understanding, so if I can go to a club or event that would explain all this it would be the most effective way I think.
:)
 

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The health testing can start now as I already said. I also said now is a good age to get her evaluated. I would start there and see what that gets you.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Well she's not 2 years yet, almost. Yeah, planning on a vet visit soon.

I'm not posting my pedigree yet personally, because I'm just not comfortable with a lot of you using a lot of presumptions to make judgement, which is absolutely the worst thing you can do in debate or any sort of logical order of processing truth and reality. I have some background knowledge in law and just debating in general, and I see so many argument fallacies when attempting to disprove me and using so many strawman arguments and red herrings, it's just not ideal for me to post it so soon, until I get the DNA testing done and I am for sure myself that she is pure before I let you guys dive into critiquing her ancestry.

If you appeal to me personally, I'm certainly willing to send it to you privately, as I have done with Sunsilver, thanks again. <3
 

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Dm takes a swab test. Cost about 60 bucks. Can be done at any age.
So can the multitude of other genetic tests.

I personally don't doubt your dog is probably purebred. First because I have seen the coloring before and second because I have worked with all manner of byb shepherds and seen all manner of types and coloring. Lol.
To be perfectly honest I know only what I have learned here about pedigrees. I am personally more interested in the breeder.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.
I never got to reply to the second part of your post. I completely agree. 100%. That's my plan. Very well-put.
 

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I think everyone here is trying to help you, really, but I am always skeptical about folks that tell you what they need to be told about something they inquiring about.
Your female is almost two; by the time you remotely have the knowledge of her traits/health, ( some of which take time in training to ascertain); and you get the experience to decide 1) whether she is breedworthy, 2) and making a good decision as to an adequate breeding partner,....you probably have missed her breeding window.
Probably less than 20% of females today are good breeding quality in the breed today....that's one out of five, when you have checked all the boxes in this imaginary checklist. Really! This is the reason the breed has so many problems today, folks are either ill informed, or folks driven by personal likes are breeding dogs.
I'm assuming you really want to do this right:smile2:, therefore the other option is having the breeder assist you in this endeavor providing the breeder is a breeder of extensive breeding experience in this breed.
I just think you have the cart before the horse, there is a reason some of the most knowledgeable breeders on this forum agrees on most things about what you are inquiring about, .....not because they woke up today and just want to rain on your parade, but rather they have seen this movie too many times in past end up non productive.
When it comes to breeding, your knowledge is more important than the individual dog, trust me, that's where you start in my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
I think everyone here is trying to help you, really, but I am always skeptical about folks that tell you what they need to be told about something they inquiring about.
Your female is almost two; by the time you remotely have the knowledge of her traits/health, ( some of which take time in training to ascertain); and you get the experience to decide 1) whether she is breedworthy, 2) and making a good decision as to an adequate breeding partner,....you probably have missed her breeding window.
Probably less than 20% of females today are good breeding quality in the breed today....that's one out of five, when you have checked all the boxes in this imaginary checklist. Really! This is the reason the breed has so many problems today, folks are either ill informed, or folks driven by personal likes are breeding dogs.
I'm assuming you really want to do this right:smile2:, therefore the other option is having the breeder assist you in this endeavor providing the breeder is a breeder of extensive breeding experience in this breed.
I just think you have the cart before the horse, there is a reason some of the most knowledgeable breeders on this forum agrees on most things about what you are inquiring about, .....not because they woke up today and just want to rain on your parade, but rather they have seen this movie too many times in past end up non productive.
When it comes to breeding, your knowledge is more important than the individual dog, trust me, that's where you start in my opinion.
I'm glad you're putting so much effort into "trying" to help me, by telling me straight up that I shouldn't even try.

I'm not looking for any subjective advice to sway me in "realizing" I shouldn't even try to see if she is breeding worthy, because, "it'll probably be too late".

I know all you're saying is presuming that I do not realize the amount of work required to breed. Just leave it to the pros. Well, without people like me (that want to learn and start somewhere), there wouldn't be pros to begin with.

That's like saying, "don't even try, because you're probably not going to make it."

I want objective facts and actions to take.

I'm glad you think my "imaginary" list (idk what that means, it's physically written, so not really imaginary) is complete. That means apparently I already learned all the things I need to go and do/learn, and it only took me 2 days to figure it all out (based on your statement that there is nothing more that can be added to the list), thanks to some very helpful people on here (Sunsilver).

By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once.

Thanks anyway! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I really like this notion of, "if you have to ask before you try, don't try." It's cute.
 

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I'm not a breeder (though I know many in real life), so here's my recommendation. Find an experienced, reputable breeder who's done something with their dogs (e.g., IPO, obedience, conformation showing) for years. Not someone who's simply bred dogs, but someone who's 'proofed' their breeding --- over generations --- in recognized competitions. Someone who also health tests their lines and can show you the results of that testing, over generations. Once you've found her/him, see if you can arrange a mentoring relationship. If said person is willing, s/he can teach you more far about pedigrees, breeding, raising and handling dogs, etc., than you can ever learn from the internet, books, and the like.

Warning: Finding the right mentor will take time, as will establishing and developing a mentoring relationship. But, if it's important to you, what you'll learn will be priceless.

Aly
 

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I just get from reading these posts from valued members (with so much experience) that they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete. Pointing out that this dog will probably not be trialed and health tested in her breeding window is just giving you the practical aspects. What you learn with her, will guide your next choice of puppy if breeding is your desire. Always remember those puppies are your responsibility for life, should their future homes become unfeasible.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
I just get from reading these posts from valued members (with so much experience) that they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete. Pointing out that this dog will probably not be trialed and health tested in her breeding window is just giving you the practical aspects. What you learn with her, will guide your next choice of puppy if breeding is your desire. Always remember those puppies are your responsibility for life, should their future homes become unfeasible.
That logic doesn't hold up at all. How can you say I'm trying to breed already when I'm trying to learn how first and start doing the things I need to determine if I should first? I think it's just personal vendetta. It's always the same people saying no to me over and over, including you (some have backed off because at least now they understand I'm not breeding for the wrong reason).

It's more like, they don't want my list complete, because they don't want me to ever get to the actual breeding part. No worries, I'll do it myself.

Based on your statement, "they don't want you to try breeding until your list is complete". First of all, you say, "try breeding", which is false, because I'm not going to try until I determine if I should and do the things necessary to decide, secondly, if they don't want me to "try breeding" until my list is complete, then why not try and complete the list so I can try breeding. That doesn't add up at all.

Once again, the notion of, "you don't even know how to do it yet, so don't even try, or don't ask us."

Or, "you don't even know how to do it yet, so we're not going to tell you how until you figure it out yourself." (lol)

And you claim, the dog probably won't be ready in time, then give specifics like, the estimated amount of time it takes to do all these things, and I'm guessing you have no numbers, because it's completely based on the person and how fast they learn, their resources, training, management, ability, knowledge and experience (presuming I have none of these at all). So, I am going to pass on your 'probability' without any statistics backing it up.

Have a nice day. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
How about just tell me what I need to know (or don't) and leave it to time to decide whether I can do it all in time, instead of presuming that I won't have the time and subjectively state that I shouldn't try because of this. All that does is add discouragement without any benefit or actual substance to my cause, just demeans it, pretty much shows your intent in posting. :)

So, I realized I'll just be here arguing forever and gain nothing (because none of you want to give me anything) with you naysayers telling me I shouldn't try at all, I get you want me gone. Like you guys said, I have no time to waste. I'm out. PDB here I come.
 

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"By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once."

Winnal, what people are trying to tell you is that the learning process takes TIME and EXPERIENCE. You can't just learn everything you need to know from a book, or the internet in a couple of weeks! That's like putting on a pair of skates for the first time, and expecting you're ready to compete in the NHL the very next week. Okay, bad analogy, maybe, but I hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say.

BTW, need to apologize for calling Winnal a 'she'. Not sure how I arrived at that assumption, but it's wrong...:blush:
 

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The list should be far enough now for you to get started and see where you stand. You have many many threads and previous statements that probably makes people take your posts with a grain or two of salt. Remember this is the internet, and "if it's on the internet, it's got to be true"
 

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Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
"By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once."

Winnal, what people are trying to tell you is that the learning process takes TIME and EXPERIENCE. You can't just learn everything you need to know from a book, or the internet in a couple of weeks! That's like putting on a pair of skates for the first time, and expecting you're ready to compete in the NHL the very next week. Okay, bad analogy, maybe, but I hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say.

BTW, need to apologize for calling Winnal a 'she'. Not sure how I arrived at that assumption, but it's wrong...:blush:
And I get that, but you can actually gain experience faster from people that are experienced, that's why there are mentors, and many people told me to find one, that's exactly what I'm going to do (people like you :)).

Have a nice day (will read your Pm soon).
 

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