Hi guys. I'm periodically searching leerburg website and what I noticed is many forum users really dislike AKC line shepherds. I'm not saying that this site tries to show these dogs bad or invaluable, but forum users think that AKC lines are weak, useless...like and anomaly. I mean maybe they can't be police dogs or good working dogs, but they are wonderful companions. I have one and I'm so happy. What is wrong with these people? I understand that maybe AKC cheapens the breed standard, but again they are our kids..It really makes me sad and angry..any opinion about this??
Leerburg is a site for people interested in working dogs. That's why you ran into those opinions there. You'll find that many (but not all) people here agree with that view, myself included.
IMO, German Shepherds were never intended to be purely 'companion dogs' or 'pets.' They are a working breed. Many AKC showline breeders have diluted the temperament of the GSD so that it no longer resembles what the breed is supposed to be... claiming the real GSD is 'too' aggressive, 'too' high-energy, etc. Well guess what... that's how the breed was DESIGNED. It's like they've try to turn GSDs into Goldens that kind of look like GSDs.
If the AKC renamed these dogs "American Shepherds," that would be far more accurate, IMO. It would not diminish the value of your dog as a companion, and it also would reflect the goals of the AKC in taking away the working ability of the GSD for the sake of selling it as a 'companion.'
Originally Posted By: NatLeerburg is a site for people interested in working dogs. That's why you ran into those opinions there. You'll find that many (but not all) people here agree with that view, myself included.
IMO, German Shepherds were never intended to be purely 'companion dogs' or 'pets.' They are a working breed. Many AKC showline breeders have diluted the temperament of the GSD so that it no longer resembles what the breed is supposed to be... claiming the real GSD is 'too' aggressive, 'too' high-energy, etc. Well guess what... that's how the breed was DESIGNED. It's like they've try to turn GSDs into Goldens that kind of look like GSDs.
If the AKC renamed these dogs "American Shepherds," that would be far more accurate, IMO. It would not diminish the value of your dog as a companion, and it also would reflect the goals of the AKC in taking away the working ability of the GSD for the sake of selling it as a 'companion.'
Originally Posted By: NatLeerburg is a site for people interested in working dogs. That's why you ran into those opinions there. You'll find that many (but not all) people here agree with that view, myself included.
IMO, German Shepherds were never intended to be purely 'companion dogs' or 'pets.' They are a working breed. Many AKC showline breeders have diluted the temperament of the GSD so that it no longer resembles what the breed is supposed to be... claiming the real GSD is 'too' aggressive, 'too' high-energy, etc. Well guess what... that's how the breed was DESIGNED. It's like they've try to turn GSDs into Goldens that kind of look like GSDs.
If the AKC renamed these dogs "American Shepherds," that would be far more accurate, IMO. It would not diminish the value of your dog as a companion, and it also would reflect the goals of the AKC in taking away the working ability of the GSD for the sake of selling it as a 'companion.'
Originally Posted By: VALIUMHi guys. I'm periodically searching leerburg website and what I noticed is many forum users really dislike AKC line shepherds. I'm not saying that this site tries to show these dogs bad or invaluable, but forum users think that AKC lines are weak, useless...like and anomaly. I mean maybe they can't be police dogs or good working dogs, but they are wonderful companions. I have one and I'm so happy. What is wrong with these people? I understand that maybe AKC cheapens the breed standard, but again they are our kids..It really makes me sad and angry..any opinion about this??
It isn't AKC registered dogs as a whole that folks on that board have a problem with. (Most of their GSDs are AKC registered themselves. ) It is the dogs that are bred for the AKC conformation show ring or that are bred JUST to be pets.
Nat & BlackGSD, the working lines are not without their problems either. the GSD is suppose to be a balanced dog that can work and spend time with the family kicking back. This requires a solid nerved balanced dog. Some of the working line breeders are breeding to extremes also, it isn't just the AM lines or the German Showlines... You guys in 20 years will be having the same problem or the extreme becomes the norm, dogs that are too civil, to sharp, handler aggressive, no off switch, JMO, but I believe there are more people breeding to the extreme than there was say 5 - 10 years ago.
i'm from back in the day when there were only two kinds, import and american bred. but time marches on and things change and i think there should be room for all under the umbrella of german shepherd dog. there will always be well bred and not so well bred. i actually think breeding should be much more regulated than it is (and possibly not only for dogs, come to think of it). jmho...i have an invisible flame-proof suit that i always have on.
beautiful weather here in michigan today! hope none of you are where the bad storms are!
Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerNat & BlackGSD, the working lines are not without their problems either. the GSD is suppose to be a balanced dog that can work and spend time with the family kicking back. This requires a solid nerved balanced dog. Some of the working line breeders are breeding to extremes also, it isn't just the AM lines or the German Showlines... You guys in 20 years will be having the same problem or the extreme becomes the norm, dogs that are too civil, to sharp, handler aggressive, no off switch, JMO, but I believe there are more people breeding to the extreme than there was say 5 - 10 years ago.
No one said that the working lines (or the German show lines) were without problems.
The fact of the matter is that AKC breeders are NOT breeding GSDs for their working ability, and that has hurt their lines to the point that I don't think of them as GSDs anymore.
Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerNat & BlackGSD, the working lines are not without their problems either. the GSD is suppose to be a balanced dog that can work and spend time with the family kicking back. This requires a solid nerved balanced dog. Some of the working line breeders are breeding to extremes also, it isn't just the AM lines or the German Showlines... You guys in 20 years will be having the same problem or the extreme becomes the norm, dogs that are too civil, to sharp, handler aggressive, no off switch, JMO, but I believe there are more people breeding to the extreme than there was say 5 - 10 years ago.
I agree with you. There ARE "working line" breeders that are breeding to the extreme. And IMO, breeding for extreme "drive" (as they call it) is NO better than breeding dogs with NO drive. Dogs with no "off switch" are a NIGHTMARE.
This part of your post is what I believe ALL breeders should breed for: (No matter WHAT lines they prefer.)
"the GSD is suppose to be a balanced dog that can work and spend time with the family kicking back. This requires a solid nerved balanced dog."
Unfortunatley there are breeders on BOTH sides of the fence that seem to forget that.
Originally Posted By: Nat
The fact of the matter is that AKC breeders are NOT breeding GSDs for their working ability, and that has hurt their lines to the point that I don't think of them as GSDs anymore.
What to ME is sad is that when I go to an AKC show, I am EMBARRASED by the GSDs in the conformation ring. Most of the ones around here have TERRIBLE temperaments(sp) too. (To all the conformation ring folks: notice I said MOST not ALL.
)
When I am at a show and folks ask what breed I have, I usually only mention my "heeler". Unless I have time to tell them that I have GSDs and explain that they are NOT of the same bloodlines/type as the dogs they see in the ring. The general public is also generally very turned off by what they see in the ring at these same shows. And to ME that is even sadder.
Originally Posted By: dOgAKC is the only FCI recognized registry in the USA.
Therefore both show line and working line breeders in the US are forced
to register with it.
From the AKC website: "Federation Cynologique Internationale (FCI) Based in Belgium, FCI licenses international shows in its 72 member countries, including the well-known annual World Show. FCI maintains breed standards for all its 341 recognized breeds. It does not operate a registry but accepts pedigrees for show purposes from the registries of its member countries. FCI has a reciprocity agreement with the AKC, the Canadian Kennel Club, and The Kennel Club (of England), which are not members."
The American GSD is bred primarily for a trot and with little consideration for working ability. Not all breeders agree with this but it is what it is. It's very depressing to see dogs which should be sturdy, agile workers walk with floppy hocks/feet and possess the turn radius of a Hummer limo. As for the other lines, many German showlines are bred for a different physical extreme and many working lines are bred for high sport competition. As stated, extremes in any direction are not correct but overall I think the working lines best fit the standard with the exception of the rare German showlines with excellent physical structure (per the standard) as well as working ability. IMO, the majority of American line GSDs turn me off or bother me, same with a lot of German showlines, both for different reasons. I've seen just a few American showlines I really liked but quite a few more German showlines I'd love to own. We all have our personal preferences and while I don't agree with it, there is a GSD for everyone (even though not everyone should have one).
I think a true GSD should match the FCI standard but first and foremost should have working ability along with family life ability. As far as extremes go for the working lines, I don't agree with it to produce a sport dog that doesn't work "for real," but I completely support breeding an extreme dog that is bred for use as a PSD, PPD, narc dog, etc. In other words, it serves a true purpose instead of bringing a handler to the podium of a national competition. I feel the same other working dogs- if the best cattle dog for aggressive cattle is too rough to live indoors with family, I think it's just fine since it can serve its intended purpose very well.
Originally Posted By: DianaM
I think a true GSD should match the FCI standard but first and foremost should have working ability along with family life ability. As far as extremes go for the working lines, I don't agree with it to produce a sport dog that doesn't work "for real," but I completely support breeding an extreme dog that is bred for use as a PSD, PPD, narc dog, etc.
IMO, you generally don't really need an "EXTREME" dog even IF the dogs purpose is to be a PSD, Narc dog ect...
I have known plenty of dogs that were working Police K9s that were VERY serious when working and were good at their "job". Yet those same dogs were perfectly happy being the family pet when "off duty".
This thread is truly timely because I went to an AKC dog show this morning and there was only a handful of German Shepherds there. I was so disappointed in the representation of the breed. One was a puppy with the ears taped just at the tips because they were falling backwards. Never seen such a thing. Another had a very long tail with no fullness and had a kink in it. None of them had the majastic noble look about them which I have come to expect. My heart is broken. I should have taken Tosca with me and showed them what one should look like even though she was a long coat. lol.
Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
IMO, you generally don't really need an "EXTREME" dog even IF the dogs purpose is to be a PSD, Narc dog ect...
I have known plenty of dogs that were working Police K9s that were VERY serious when working and were good at their "job". Yet those same dogs were perfectly happy being the family pet when "off duty".
I agree, but usually those dogs still need a knowledgeable handler to be the family pet. To expect that any average family can own a truly working dog is to ask to much of the breed, of any breed, without watering down those working abilities.
I used to think ALL GSDs should be working dogs, but that wouldn't be possible without buffering some characteristics that I love. Then I like the approach of Germans that every single dog to be bred should have a minimum of working ability (ok... in a perfect world, I know) and still have separated working lines for those who want more of their dogs that just to be the family pet.
Did you watch the latest US sieger show videos? Lots of dogs got "pronounced" only because they mostly stayed on the sleeve. Conformation-oriented programs seem to always err on the side of conformation rather than temperament; watch an AKC all-breed show and notice how some dogs put up clearly display weak nerves or other temperament issues.
BlackGSD, I agree that it may not be a necessity, but if that's what is desired, hey I'm not in the military, I'm not in a K9 unit, if the pros prefer an extreme dog because they know that that's what works best for them, far be it from me to argue. A job needs to be done and that's that. I have met PSDs that were great with people and lived with the family and to me, there is little else more desired in a dog that can successfully work the streets and be the family dog.
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Hey guys! :dancingtree::snowmen::dancingtree:
Pardon the all caps title, I wanted to make sure everyone saw it and had the chance to join in if they're interested. ....and I might be a little excited! :grin2:
WHAT IT IS:
So every year this forum's members host a Christmas/Holiday card...
Greetings from Irmo, South Carolina!
My girlfriend and I recently moved from SW suburbs of Chicago, IL to Irmo, SC, getting away from the cold, the chaos, and the taxes:laugh2:.
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