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Discussion Starter #1
I'm going to open a can of worms (so soon?) and I'm sure I'll lose a lot of respect with some members and gain a lot with others.

What is it with AKC and their judging?

The breed standard states "must show confidence" (Seiger, AKC, UKC, etc..) yet I've seen GSDs get breed (and group placements!) that are afraid of the judges! All of my dogs go into the ring like they own it, even wag their tails and NEVER cowe back from a judge.

Plus, what is up with the rear ends? I see so many "show" (and I use the term loosely) GSDs that have their rear ends closer than most toy breeds. I'd hate to see what their hips look like when the dog gets older.

Most GSDs I've seen in the ring would be horrible at what the GSD was bred to do, herd, protect, and be a loyal companion (well, most have that last one down).

Look at the history of the GSD. They were very similar to the other shepherds (Belgian shepherds, Dutch shepherds etc..) until WWII where they got their destinctive coloring (saddle, etc..) and you didn't see the extreme back end until the 70's -80's and primarily in the USA.
 

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Don't blame the AKC ... blame the individual judges.

Judges pick what THEY think it the closest to matching the standard. If enough judges started picking German Shepherds with a pink stripe down their back people would breed for that.

Since most judges don't seem to care about temperament, neither do some breeders. They just want to breed what wins.

I've seen Mals in the ring that lacked confidence but were beautiful to look at. Guess who wins?
 

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LOL... I am anxiously waiting for this discussion...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangDon't blame the AKC ... blame the individual judges.(snip)
Acknowldeged, and we can also go as far as to blame the clubs that invite these judges to judge the way that they do.

It's a vicious circle. AKC "approves" the judges, then the clubs choose the judges and do on.

Quote:I've seen Mals in the ring that lacked confidence but were beautiful to look at. Guess who wins?
I bet I could guess the mal especially if it was ranked.


It's hard to find a dog that excells in working and confirmation (and this is what my wife strives for when choosing puppies and potential mates).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Can't edit my post anymore, I was going to add this:

Edit: Don't get me wrong, there are some good / ethical judges out there who do pay attention to the standards. We were watching the Westminster show a few years ago and a GSD was up for BiS (I think it was BiS but it might have been group) and we knew the judge really liked him. We both agreed that the judge was going to place the GSD.

The judge did one more walk by, put his hand in front of the GSD and caught the GSD off guard and it's head jerked back a little (as if his nose got tapped). We both knew it was over for the GSD that very second.
 

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I agree I have seen gsds even bite their handlers doing the down and back and and others do great but guess which one wins the class and breed. Alot I have noticed is really (and should not be this way but it) on the other end of the lead.
 

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Originally Posted By: DraggarCan't edit my post anymore, I was going to add this:

Edit: Don't get me wrong, there are some good / ethical judges out there who do pay attention to the standards. We were watching the Westminster show a few years ago and a GSD was up for BiS (I think it was BiS but it might have been group) and we knew the judge really liked him. We both agreed that the judge was going to place the GSD.

The judge did one more walk by, put his hand in front of the GSD and caught the GSD off guard and it's head jerked back a little (as if his nose got tapped). We both knew it was over for the GSD that very second.
I know which show you are talking about that was a big talk and the dog was handled by Jimmy Moses and by what I heard it did get zapped because of the carpet or I believe he tapped the end of its nose (the judge got too close to letting him smell his hand I believe) but it was the judges fault that made the dog do that
 

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*IF* the dog got shocked with static electricity then pulling back should not have mattered as long as he/she recovered. The judge would know if indeed the dog was shocked or spooked. It is very possible that the handler would not know and *could* be making an excuse.
 

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Re: AKC & a can of worms

Originally Posted By: Amaruq*IF* the dog got shocked with static electricity then pulling back should not have mattered as long as he/she recovered. The judge would know if indeed the dog was shocked or spooked. It is very possible that the handler would not know and *could* be making an excuse.
Static shock is very plausible. Westminster is during the winter in NYC - very high rate of static electricity.

Plus, the rug adds into that.

From what it looked like on TV, the judges hand was very close to the dog's nose.
 

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It's not just this show and it's not just this breed. How many terriers nowadays do you see that looked scared out of their mind? Terriers that were bred to believe they're 200 lb, 36"-at-shoulder dogs loaded with piss, vinegar, and instinct to rock everyone's world are now cringing in fear. And yet, they get put up. It's sad that a dog that comes closest to its breed standard physically but is scared of its own shadow places over one with a few physical faults but stellar temperament, but thank goodness for working and performance-oriented breeding programs! The structure of a dog will not determine if it loves kids, nor will the ear set contribute to whether a dog is fear aggressive, and because we all live in litigious societies temperament should really be placed above all else. What good is a beautiful and healthy dog if it tries to attack everyone it sees or hides behind its owner if a child shows up?

As to the rears, I just don't get it. They walk with their necks and heads straight up and the rears straight down. I really just don't get it.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/55.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/467782.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/124262.html

Now these are very nice dogs, great structure, excellent overall look. Showlines, of course, and I'm sure they move nicely. IMO the exaggerated flying trot gait is displeasing but a true, balanced flying trot (one that any well built breed can accomplish) is wonderful to watch. But again, I don't care what it looks like so long it can move efficiently without much movement waste, turn on a dime (how many of these American lines seem to be unable to do that..), be agile as a ferret on crack and have the completely bombproof and amazing temperament that makes the GSD what it is. If all that is there, it is beautiful regardless of lines or type. I have seen dogs of all lines that I like; the common theme is moderation and closeness to the TRUE standard, not the one idealized in the minds of some breeders and judges.
 

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a breeder judge in Amer was telling me of a Can judge who put up a female whose tail curled around to her back. I aksed him if that judge forget he was judging gsd's and thought this was the husky ring...

A lot of judges try out for many breeds, without really having a solid foundation for any particular breed. They don't really know the standard, and they judge by handler, or what teythink is pretty, or what they remember Rin Tin Tin looked like when they were a child.
Most show folks dislike all breed shows, because they feel that most of the judges wouldn't know a pure gsd much less one that conforms to the standard.

For example, people will call anything with pricked ears a gsd mix.

Now it's a shame on the breeders who, instead of avoiding those judges,( lowering entries and forcing the clubs to hire a decent judge) show their junk that they couldn't get passed by anyone else.
 

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And please don't get me started on temperment. I've handled for some folks, and taken some squirrelly dogs into the ring, sight unseen.

I almost broke my neck, and I wish I had been warned. I couldn't even grab the leash w/o the dog jumping in fright. Forget showing the bite. This was not due to rough handling. Everytime a took a step back or a round her she spooked.

If I was the owner, I'd have that girl spayed.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Originally Posted By: chasethedoga breeder judge in Amer was telling me of a Can judge who put up a female whose tail curled around to her back. I aksed him if that judge forget he was judging gsd's and thought this was the husky ring...
You wouldn't believe how bad this problem is in the collie ring here in south Florida. You'd swear you were watching miscolored Akitas (except my collie). There are also a lot of Belgians that have the curled tail, too but not many GSDs.
 

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Re: AKC & a can of worms

The Westminster GSD you're talking about is a bitch. Her name is Geneva, and she is retired now :) I've met her, and she's quite sound and sweet, shows well, and is very even keel in temperament. I wouldn't doubt that she DID get zapped, as she's not known to shy from a judge.

I personally don't care for any of the PDB dogs posted...too straight in front and no turn of stifle.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/398433.html - This is a rather nice showline male that I'd love to be holding the lead of
 

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Just as bad, sadly. Those sieger show videos were painful. Conformation shows as a whole just don't do any good for many breeds. Yes, there needs to be a physical standard to be met but ability and brains need to come first. Sleeve-feeding gaining ratings of "TSB pronounced.." oh yeah.
Of the German showlines, I hate seeing cowhocks and east-west stances. Ridiculously prevalent, too. And the backs/croups/toplines.

Cherri, does the dachshund standard all ALL colors as acceptable? I've seen pieds and merles and tans and speckleds and chocolate-banana-splits and I was wondering if all are accepted. If so, that's pretty neat and good on them for not minding much about color.
 

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Sigh. I have seen some niiiiice Kirschental dogs here. I tend to like dogs with the heaviest bone-- just my preference, bordering on "coarse."

Balancing out how bad it is when the AKC show judges sway the way the AKC standard is interpreted, is that working dog judges get planefare paid for to come over from Europe, accomodations paid for here-- and end up being VERY generous to the host club's dogs with ratings. Judges are people. There is crookedness in the show world for sure. But I think one can find a show dog with ideal nerves and drive level (exempting the extreme) if one looks. Too bad the looking is not so simple as it once was. But very nice when we find dogs with reliable minds and good structure in the same body.

Many of the Dachsunds here incidentally, probably nobody in USA would want. No only no newfangled colors, but they have still got the original temperament: Assertive, domineering tyrants with wills of iron, hearts of gold, kisses for their fave people, big dog barks, and more actual true aggression and fire than is seen in the most spunky Dachsies in USA. Okay.. not everyone wants one like that. but I can't help admire them. Longer legs and often wirecoats in the wild-boar colors.. nice!
 

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Yes, there are some out there, like Caisson kennels. Temperment is the easiest thing to lose and the hardest to get back. I guess that's why I don't have any females and don't breed, because I just have't met one yet who had good bone, and solid nerves that I'd want to show/breed with.
 

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I don't disagree that there are temperament problems which either go unnoticed by judges (not much of a judge in my opinion who can't see it) or is just overlooked in the AKC or CKC rings. There are many good and sound dogs out there though, unfortunately it's the bad ones who are remembered and cause for all the hoopla.

But I have seen some atrocious judging in SV style shows, at least in my area, by judges brought in from Germany. A number of us used to enter a dog or two to support the local club and just have a day out with GSD's, no matter the bloodlines. One year my dog who is now 12 was entered in one of the young male classes, can't remember which but under 2 years. He was placed behind the dog who won the class. The dog who won did not have his mouth examined as he attempted to escape the judge, kept his tail glued to his belly - he may have had testicles under there, who knew? And he backed behind the handler on the gun test. Class winner.

Funny thing is, his owner entered him hoping for just this type of display as she had been attempting to return this dog to the breeder because he was unsound, and the breeder had refused to acknowledge the problems. His owner figured if she put him out there for others to see she'd at least have witnesses to his fear and lack of nerve. She ended up with a class win, go figure.

And yes, my Canadian bred dog and the others in the class were gun sure, steady on their exams and clean and balanced in their movement, by no means were any of them more extreme than German bred dogs in the class (many people have asked over the years if my dog had German lines). Overall, a pretty souring experience when obvious spooks are given the wins in the SV style ring.
 
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