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Discussion Starter #1
This morning I am thinking of the breeder where we got Chief, and some of the things that he told us about breeding dogs. At the time, we were interested in making Chief a stud dog. He told us that all his dogs are tested as pups. He said it was a temperament test of some sort. If the pup did not pass the test, or showed any signs of bad temperament, it was killed on the spot. He said it was to make sure that no "bad" dogs came from his kennel, and to keep his dogs lines great. Does this still happen?
 

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This is called "culling". Culling by killing the pup is not common, no. It used to be more common than it is now, and while I suppose it may still be practiced by some breeders here and there it is certainly not the norm. Typically pups with some sort of fault that would preclude them from breeding would be placed on spay/neuter agreements in approrpriate homes, not killed.

I also cannot fathom what sort of temperament test would be performed on a young pup, who by virtue of such a young age has a temperament that is far from fully developed, that would be so predictive certain results would demand a death sentance. While it is possible for a young pup to have such horrible temperament that it is a lost cause even in the best home, such would be very, very rare. And if a pup is so poorly temperamented at a young age that it needs to be killed, then the whole litter, and maybe bloodline, might need to be scrapped because there are some seriously bad genetics floating about in it. Especially if it is occurring enough in that bloodline to warrant such extreme culling policies.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
The bloodlines were excellent with this breeder. Chief was born in 1988, so maybe the practice was more common then than it is now. That was what I was thinking myself, why not spay/neuter the " unacceptable" ones? Here is Chief's pedigree to show the bloodlines that this breeder used, at least with Chief's parents. I don't know about his other dogs lines.
 

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My experiance is that CH. doesn't attest to the dogs temperment much. Judges also have different perspectives on what each breed should bring to the table, and if the breed standard calls for aloofness, the judge may take it a little far.
But my understanding is that for the most part show dogs are used to being handled by stangers...no?
Sorry for derailing the post!
 

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My experiance is that CH. doesn't attest to the dogs temperment much. Judges also have different perspectives on what each breed should bring to the table, and if the breed standard calls for aloofness, the judge may take it a little far.
But my understanding is that for the most part show dogs are used to being handled by stangers...no?
Sorry for derailing the post!
Chief was one of his show dog breedings so what you are saying is probably true. He also bred dogs that weren't show dogs, so I can't say where their bloodlines came from, if they were the same or not.
 

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Did he say how frequently he culled a puppy? That seems an odd thing to tell a (potential) buyer. On one hand, perhaps he was thinking you might be relieved to know he killed all the aggressive ones (tongue in cheek here), but on the other one would think buyers might be alarmed to hear his breedings were producing puppies so evil they needed to be killed on the spot.
 

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Did he say how frequently he culled a puppy? That seems an odd thing to tell a (potential) buyer. On one hand, perhaps he was thinking you might be relieved to know he killed all the aggressive ones (tongue in cheek here), but on the other one would think buyers might be alarmed to hear his breedings were producing puppies so evil they needed to be killed on the spot.
I don't think he would have told the buyer off the street this. We were friends with him, and interested in the breeding process. You never know though, he was an ex Marine, vietnam vet, and very tough and straightforward.
 

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I don't think he would have told the buyer off the street this. We were friends with him, and interested in the breeding process. You never know though, he was an ex Marine, vietnam vet, and very tough and straightforward.
I don't think you can really tell at such a young age but that's beside the point.
If he isn't telling potential buyers that part of a litter was aggressive he's not doing anyone any favors...basically he's hiding faults in his line.
 

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The bloodlines were excellent with this breeder. Chief was born in 1988, so maybe the practice was more common then than it is now. That was what I was thinking myself, why not spay/neuter the " unacceptable" ones? Here is Chief's pedigree to show the bloodlines that this breeder used, at least with Chief's parents. I don't know about his other dogs lines.
Many very well known US showlines, esp. those of Lance - probably one of, if not THE most famous show dog sire!
 

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My experiance is that CH. doesn't attest to the dogs temperment much. Judges also have different perspectives on what each breed should bring to the table, and if the breed standard calls for aloofness, the judge may take it a little far.
But my understanding is that for the most part show dogs are used to being handled by stangers...no?
Sorry for derailing the post!
Many show dogs are that way but by no means all of them. The ones who are handled by pro handlers are usually but many of the owner handled dogs sometimes are not used to strangers.
 

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Hmmm, breeder was tough, marine, and vietnam vet, looking at the pedigree; I see lines going to Howard Johnson, Amber, etc. that were not known as bastions of temperament. I think the chance may be that extreme shyness which is evident in puppies and very transmitable could have been issues he would not want to proliferate in his lines. Just a guess though.
 

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Tho I have not seen her in "years"< I knew the lady who owned Waltraut's Black Jack, she lived inWethersfield CT, was heavily into am show lines and showing. Nice dogs, a little to extreme for my taste, temps were ok on the few I met of hers.

Last I knew she defected to corgi's, and honestly not even sure if she's still alive as I haven't seen her in years
 

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Hmmm, breeder was tough, marine, and vietnam vet, looking at the pedigree; I see lines going to Howard Johnson, Amber, etc. that were not known as bastions of temperament. I think the chance may be that extreme shyness which is evident in puppies and very transmitable could have been issues he would not want to proliferate in his lines. Just a guess though.
I guess if that is the case it could be interpreted as the right thing to do in that it's better than sending a bunch of shy, unsound dogs out into the world. But my question is if that is the case, why breed that line at all?? It's not like the non-culled pups miraculously won't pass on those same undesirable traits. The survivors carry the same genetics.

I don't know enough about those lines to hypothesize if that might have been the case or not. But it would seem to me that any line that is regularly producing such faulty temperament, or faulty health, should be eliminated for breeding altogether. Not just the "worst" culled and the "best" kept, and presumably bred. To do that still proliferates those traits.
 

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About breeding on with lines that have had serious temp problems crop up- Hearing from the breeder of my dog who said he had to euthanaise a dog who was a close descendent (daughter or granddaughter) of a very popular WL in europe for excessive fearfulness has made me question this. Also the original importer of these lines also talked of euthanasing a dog from these lines for or the same problem. Some of the litter were reputed good working dogs- but there is obviously some serious nerve problems in those genetics, which has made me question whether I would get a pup from those lines at all ? But then this is one of the most successful producing bloodlines in europe LOL

Because of the early temperament issues in the beginning of the breed, and due to heavy linebreeding on foundation animals is it likely these problems will always crop up occasionally ? and thus eliminating lines for a few bad problems not good for the overall gene pool and genetic diversity ? Or is temperament to valuable a trait to gamble with ?
 
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