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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi everyone, I am new to this forum and am glad to be a member.

I am hoping for some advice on my issue. I have a great 8 year old Shepherd named Gina. recently she has developped some arthritis in the back and right knee. Vet has her on 50mg of Deramaxx a day (which I hate) and is very open to vitamin therapy. I am a strong beliver in natural vitamin supplements, I cleared up my grandmothers emphysema that way. Right now Gina is 110 pounds, very active. We notice the arthritis when she first gets up from sleeping and when facing stairs, she has "tightness" but no pain. Once up for a minute or two she can spend the whole say in the yard moving around, I just want to make her as comfortable as possible and not have to give more medecin.

Besides the deramaxx she gets 5ml of UBAVET for joints. I dont really like th eproduct as I find the doses of glucosamine etc... are not theraputic, also, I dont notice it helping much. I also give her baout 100mg of EsterC daily.

I want to switch to an intense vitamin therapy diet, I plan to use only the best quality supplements. Below is a list of what I want to start giving, basically I want everyones opinon on this as well as dosing info. Also would like to know what is better, Glucosamine sulfate or HCL?

Products I want to use:

1- Glucosamine
2- Chondroitin
3- MSM
4- Omega 3 wild fish oil
5- Vitamin E
6- Vitamin C

Basically I am willing to do whatever necessary to make her feel as good as possible, she loved to chase squirrels and I want to keep the arthritis away, and I have full faith in the above products. Please feel free to add any products .
Any suggestions, opinions and dosing info would be greatly appreciated. Note that she eats Orijen 5 Fish dry food, once daily mixed with a little Welness canned food.

Thank you all
Brad
 

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It is such a shame with GSDs, just when you get them exactly how you want them the arthritus kicks in. The best thing i have ever found for it is a bioflow magnetic collar. You need to keep it on constantly and dont rely on it with a lead as the plastic clip will snap. I was able to get my old girl off painkillers with this. Also have you tried hydrotherapy,we found it a big help.
 

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From experience and research….
Arthritis is partly from inflammation and calcium loss. No one ever says what it really is.
Societies that consume 6mg/day of Boron – A Mineral … have almost no Arthritis. Jarrow Formulas has a Triple Boron of 3mg/pill. A lower dose would benefit dogs. Boron helps keep Calcium in the bones… Duh !

Magnesium also helps keep calcium in the bones.. .and helps move it into the bones from the blood. Do not consumer Calcium with Magnesium at the same time… as it bonds the Magnesium up so it can not work. One only absorbs 5% of Magnesium Oxide pills.. and maybe 10% of others.. powder is more effective.. But one absorbs 50% of Magnesium Bicarbonate Water ! Plus you can make it yourself cheaply… by adding 3 Tablespoons of plain Milk of Magnesium to a liter of Carbonated water or better yet – Carbonated Mineral Water. Then Shake and chill the bottle twice. This has 1,500 mg of Magnesium in it then.. drink 1/3 bottle/day yourself without food… use less of course for dogs. Search the net for info. Small amounts (50mg?) of Zinc per day helps Magnesium work…

Chondroitin actually does not help arthritis studies show… so vitamin companies are going to stop adding it. The other supplements are great however.

Raw Unfiltered Coconut Oil is good for many things… Search for Arthritis + Coconut Oil.

Low Dose Naltrexone (LDN) 4.5mg/day stops arthritis, cancer, etc… They also give it to dogs and babies at lower doses. Skip’s Pharmacy in Boca Raton, FL fills scripts for it for dogs. A Yahoo Group… LDN_4_Pets has discussions about it, and info on Vets who prescribe it. It is my #1 health tip to increase the Immunity & health… No one discusses how to increase one's immunity.

Systemic Enzyme Supplements are from plants.. Enzymes are involved in 3,000 adult body functions.. They reduce INFLAMMATION , including in the arteries which is where stroke and heart attacks start. Read the reviews on Amazon. They speed up healing and reduce pain.
 

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We use Chondroitin with both of our senior dogs and it works well. THe one issue i have with it is sometimes they think they are super - dog and will do things that if they were not on it, they would never do. Have to pay attention and make sure they are not overextending their capabilities.
 

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there is a liquid product called Next Level made by Farnum which I gave to my old male for the last two years or so....

Farnam - Your partner in horse care

  • Exclusive fluid supplement helps keep joints lubricated
  • Powerful flex combination of every source of GAGs available
  • Contains glucosamine, shark cartilage, perna mussel, Ester C™ and MSM
  • Special bromelain enzyme solution absorbs quickly and digests easily
  • For horses and dogs
  • Available in 16 oz, 32 oz and gallon sizesEster C is a licensed trademark of Zila Nutraceuticals, Inc. and manufactured under U.S. patent 6,197,815
the website link has links to retailers too....

Lee
 

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there is a liquid product called Next Level made by Farnum which I gave to my old male for the last two years or so....

Farnam - Your partner in horse care

  • Exclusive fluid supplement helps keep joints lubricated
  • Powerful flex combination of every source of GAGs available
  • Contains glucosamine, shark cartilage, perna mussel, Ester C™ and MSM
  • Special bromelain enzyme solution absorbs quickly and digests easily
  • For horses and dogs
  • Available in 16 oz, 32 oz and gallon sizesEster C is a licensed trademark of Zila Nutraceuticals, Inc. and manufactured under U.S. patent 6,197,815
the website link has links to retailers too....

Lee

I have heard really great things about this too. A friend uses it on their dogs and they make a horse version which she gives the race horses.
 

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First and foremost, talk to your vet about Adequan therapy. (There's also a generic form of it that's a little less expensive...I can never remember what it's called though--your vet should know). Adequan helped me get my dog off Deramaxx/ Rimadyl, and he's better now than he was on NSAIDs! There are lots of threads in the archives about Adequan--please read up on it, as I know of nothing as powerful to help arthritic dogs.

Adequan is a bit of a commitment (shots 2x a week for a month, then maintenance shots biweekly or monthly forever), but when it works, it's AMAZING. It helps the dog regrow new cartilage inside the joint instead of just masking inflammation. It can add quality, active years to your girl, and it's supposed to be very, very safe.

I wish it were recommended early in the onset of arthritis for more dogs, but a lot of vets don't seem to know about it and default to prescribing NSAIDs (my old vet did that too--I had to switch to a new vet to find one using Adequan successfully in arthritic patients). I'm very grateful to the people here who informed me about it--it helped my 11 year old go from a dog who moved slowly and gingerly when he wasn't on NSAIDs to one who doesn't need NSAIDs and is back to wanting to jog and play.

As for supplements, I think they important even with Adequan therapy -- same with regular, gentle exercise (it's very, very important for dogs with arthritis). My vet believes the best results for arthritis are seen with a multipronged approach that works synergistically (exercise, supplements, Adequan...and if needed, very low doses of the safest pain meds). We'll be adding acupuncture into the mix in the coming weeks too, now that I've located a local practitioner who specializes in dogs.

This thread describes the supplements I'm using, and I got lots of great advice in that thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/senior-dog/186832-deramaxx-no-longer-available-alternatives-work-your-senior.html

I've since added coconut oil to the list.

FWIW, I've come to believe that the Collagen II (chicken sternum) supplement (Twinlab MaxiLIFE® Collagen Type II -- 60 Capsules - Vitacost ), which is high in hyaluronic acid, is important. The bone broth recipe described in that old thread by Gatorbytes inspired me to use this supplement, and I think it's a helpful addition (though one rarely on the standard list for arthritic dogs).
 

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The number one thing to help with arthritis is to make sure your dog is not a single pound overweight. Actually a pound or two underweight is even better. 110 pounds is huge for a GSD, especially a female. Is there any fat that you can take off of her?

Second, I agree that Adequan is amazing! To save money, I purchase it online and give the injections myself.

Also, look into Microlactin, the active ingredient in Duralactin. It is a natural anti-inflammatory. I purchase straight microlactin online as it is much cheaper than the dog version, which is just flavored microlactin.
 

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Zeel. It's homeopathic. Three tablets twice a day. I swear by it. I can tell when Rudy misses a dose.
He eats it right out of my hand.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Wow, thanks for all the input guys!

Hi everyone. I'm so sorry for the delay in coming back on the site, we have been so busy, and I can't tell everyone how much I appreciate all the reply's so far. I will be researching each and every one of your opinions this weekend. Also, to asnwer one of the questions, I know 110lbs is big, but she has always been big. She is not fat , not at all, she is simply a BIG dog. We knew it even when she was a puppy, and the vet continues to congragulate us on keeping her weight down (from 2-6 she was around 118). She eats once a day (as she doesnt want to eat in the morning) , at supper, 2cups of Orijen 5 Fish mixed with a little wet Wellness Lamb 95%.

So, I stopped giving her the Ubavet (joint supplemnt from vet) as I didnt think it was helping too much (vet said some dogs dont take to it). and for the last 10 days I have been supplement (see list below) with quality SISU vitamin supplements. I would appreciate you guys' opinion on my dosing, should I raise any doses or add another supplement etc etc.. (again, I will be researching all of your opinions , but would love some input on my currect treatement). Here is the list:

Glucosamine Sulfate - 1800mg/day
Chondroitin Sulfate- 800mg/day
MSM 1000mg/day
Ester-C 1200mg/day
Omega 3 (wild fish oil) 2000mg/day
Vitamin E 800mg/week (1X400mg twice weekly)
--------- ------------- ------------------ -----------------
Deramaxx 50mg/day (vet prescribed)
Thank you all again for all the input. And promise to check back here daily.

Brad
p.s.: Money is not an issue, I don't care how much the supplements etc.. cost.
 

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ON this http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/senior-dog/186832-deramaxx-no-longer-available-alternatives-work-your-senior.html(Magwort's thread) some discussion on NEM (natural eggshell membrane) incl. a couple brands and links - also, my easy bone stock recipe and other possibilities for inflammation (multi-approach)

Also note about this, is the OP's thread starts about Deramaxx alternative - Ended up w/Alt suggestions to NSAIDS - read the thread, may help you!:)

Hoping you find a balance that works, but try to get off the deramaxx;)

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hi, I read the thread, alot of interesting reading. And the inital posting was from someone who apparently was already giving supplements. Regardless, I am a high believer, with high quality supplements , especially Ester-C , and fish oil, I have dramatically increased my 80 year old grandmothers quality of live (Chronic COPD sufferer) and I also hate medication. Even after reading, based on my current treatement, I am still having trouble finding ifo on theraputic dosing and when to give it. I split my amounts up into twice daily, perhaps its better to give them all at one time? Also, I am aware that especially fish oil should be doubled at least, I just wanted to make sure there was no stomach upset before. But also the rest of the supplements, some say to double the glucosamine for the first few weeks, I am fully willing, but again dont want to cause stomach upset... I am going to keep researching to find out what is the minimal dose of everything that I should be using.

Thanks for your continued input

Brad
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I am curious to know if Zeel could be added to my present regimen without worry. Also wondering if there are any other supplements I should consider adding (ones most likely not to cause stomach upset or interact with the deramaxx).

I would LOVE to get off the Deramaxx, but until I can setup a "plan" to make that happen, I would like to see more improvement before taking her off the pill, even though, once she is walking for a minute or two she is able to chase squirrels in the yard for an hour. What freaks me out the most to be honest with you are the stairs, I hate to see her hesitate before going up :s
 

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Your vet should be helping with doseage, if possible. (I had to switch vets to find one willing to think about supplements as part of the approach!)

My vet took my dog up to 4,000 mg of fish oil (from 2,000), and we split it AM/PM. We did 3,000 for a while before going up to 4,000 to avoid tummy upset. His opinion was a high dose is safe (we use a human-grade supplement that tests for and purifies to remove mercury--several brands do this). I'm giving 400 mg of vitamin E daily (mixed tocopherols -- very important, not synthetic).

Ester-C I'm doing 1,000 mg. I'm considering going up to 2,000 based on the Best Friends Animal Sanctuary study. We haven't done it yet, but here's what got me thinking about the higher dose:
Vitamin May Relieve Pain Of Hip Dysplasia - Spokesman Mobile - Oct. 6, 1996

Re weight: If your dog has "always" been 110, it's likely still worth asking the vet about dropping some pounds. Simon's "ideal" weight at his prime was 85#. He was a substantial, muscular dog at that weight for most of his life--never fat. The new vet I started working with last year asked me to take him down to 75#, warning me that Simon would look a little thin at 75# (not terribly so, but it's noticeable to me). The vet wanted him a little underweight as a senior,as opposed to being his previous "ideal" weight. We got to that goal slowly, over several months. I think it has helped Simon.

FWIW, Dr. Clemens (well respected DM researcher) has a list of supplements he thinks all GSDs should be on, with higher doseages for DM dogs. Even though you don't have a DM dog, his list of supplements for "all" dogs might give you a place to begin:
Degenerative Myelopathy of German Shepherds (my vet actually sent me to this site).

Look into NEM and Adequan (once Adequan starts being made in the factory again--it's currently on backorder until July).

Also ask your vet about using a drug like Gabipentin to avoid a pain-boomerang, once you are ready to wean off the NSAIDs eventually. It has a much safer profile than the NSAIDs, so I'm told it's a better choice for long term maintenance, coming off the NSAIDs. Also, we had a careful plan to step the NSAIDs down over a period of time. Your vet should be able to help plan this, as other treatment modalities kick in. The key for us was Adequan though -- it wasn't until 2-3 weeks into the loading dose that everything came together for us. I think it's a critical component of our success.

While Adequan is on back order, I know one person who's having excellent success in a dog with HD using Polyglycan injections (a form of hyaluronic acid injected into the joint, I think). She's on a once-a-month maintenance dose, and doing really great.
 

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Have you ever considered Chiropractic's and Acupuncture? Really helps!
No adverse reactions with homeopathic's like Zeel. GREAT recommendation by M&J
You may want to also look at "Mussel Dog" https://www.musseldoghealth.com/Mussel-Dog-Benefits.dtm#order and https://www.musseldoghealth.com/Mussel-Dog-FAQs.dtm#order "Harvested from Green-Lipped Mussels with a patented manufacturing process that ensures the purest and most potent oil extract in the world" (better quality than other Green-Lipped Mussels b/c of the way it's processed). You give "loading doses" for a few weeks, and then cut down the amount. We take the human version "Omaprem" and have experienced a noticeable difference! Omaprem FAQ | Powerful All Natural Pain Relief | Patented Omega-3 Supplement from the Green Lipped Mussel
Good Luck!
Moms :)
 

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This is Rafi's regime:

Springtime Inc. Longevity
Ester C
fish oil (Springtime Omega 3-6-9)
Connectin
Tumeric

At night he also gets:

Only Natural Pet Get Up and Go
Sea Mobility Joint Rescue treats

If he has a flare up or injury I use Arnica, Traumeel, Zeel or Tasha's Herbsperin.

I LOVE Tasha's Herbsperin It is a combo with white willow bark. White willow bark is an excellent anti-inflammatory. Tasha's Herbspirin (2 oz) [20112] - $16.95 : Holistic, natural remedies for dogs and cats., Natural nutrition, food and supplemements for dogs, cats and horses.

He also gets acupuncture and he is about to start chiropractic. I keep him super lean. He is also on coconut oil but I have not noticed that it makes a difference with his arthritis (or my joint problems either).
 

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Deramaxx is contradicted with aspirin - aspirin is/was derived from White Willow
 

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Please look into Stem Cell Therapy for your girl. She is young and if in otherwise good health, may be a candidate for it. I will post a thread with our experience.

There are a couple of critical things that we learned . . . I will try and summarize it.

Sue
 
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