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I hope those posting fantastic advice on training puppies without aversives won't be discouraged from sharing their knowledge. There are a lot of ways to train a puppy and many people on here prefer to train puppies with positive methods. I also know that some of the professional dog trainers on here don't use prongs. They aren't against them, but they get good results with other methods and don't use them. Zola123 and 4K9Mom, thank you so much for taking the time to share your methods. Don't let bullies run you off or stop you from sharing your knowledge.
I like hearing from all sides and I also cringe when I see posts from bullies. I believe we should use the least restrictive methods to train our dogs that work for them. A prong or e collar are last resorts, not first choices. I am in awe of a family dog trainer I know online who can train anything, even IGE, without special collars. But not everyone is that skilled.
 

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I like hearing from all sides and I also cringe when I see posts from bullies. I believe we should use the least restrictive methods to train our dogs that work for them. A prong or e collar are last resorts, not first choices. I am in awe of a family dog trainer I know online who can train anything, even IGE, without special collars. But not everyone is that skilled.


Who’s the trainer?? I’d like to watch and learn


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Who’s the trainer?? I’d like to watch and learn


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It’s a private trainer and I meant that I know the person online. I don’t think he has videos posted anywhere. For videos, watch anything by Stonnie Dennis. He uses treats and praise and gets good results. He can also read a dog and know exactly what the dog needs. I wish I was half as good as he is.
 

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I like hearing from all sides and I also cringe when I see posts from bullies. I believe we should use the least restrictive methods to train our dogs that work for them. A prong or e collar are last resorts, not first choices. I am in awe of a family dog trainer I know online who can train anything, even IGE, without special collars. But not everyone is that skilled.
Agreed, that is how we learn too, not just the puppies. Different dogs can require different methods and it never hurts to have many tools in one's toolbox.

If the trainer is who I think it is, he is fantastic! I just consulted with him last night regarding the new Mali pup.
 

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It’s a private trainer and I meant that I know the person online. I don’t think he has videos posted anywhere. For videos, watch anything by Stonnie Dennis. He uses treats and praise and gets good results. He can also read a dog and know exactly what the dog needs. I wish I was half as good as he is.


Oh! Gotcha! Already a fan of stonnie. Thanks!


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Agreed, that is how we learn too, not just the puppies. Different dogs can require different methods and it never hurts to have many tools in one's toolbox.



If the trainer is who I think it is, he is fantastic! I just consulted with him last night regarding the new Mali pup.


Is “the trainer” a secret? Lol. Must be someone who wants to stay low key. Oh well!


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Is “the trainer” a secret? Lol. Must be someone who wants to stay low key. Oh well!


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He is a member on this forum that no longer comes here due to all of the bickering. I respect his wishes.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Me neither.

The second fear stage occurs during adolescence. If we don’t make a big thing of whatever our pup is suddenly afraid of/reacts to, but just reassure him and move past it, he’ll almost certainly be fine.

With a prong collar on a pup, not only is that thing (a big rock, kite, blowing plastic bag, UPS truck, whatever...) suddenly scary, but if the dog pulls, you’ve now associated physical pain with the scary thing. That’s an excellent way to permanently imprint fear.

Prong collars are tools to be used under specific training conditions, if they must be used at all. They don’t belong on puppies.
thanks for this!! i was not aware of the fear stages but researched it after your response. cheers!
 

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Agreed, that is how we learn too, not just the puppies. Different dogs can require different methods and it never hurts to have many tools in one's toolbox.

If the trainer is who I think it is, he is fantastic! I just consulted with him last night regarding the new Mali pup.
Yes. Hire him! Bring donuts.
 

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If anyone is interested, here is an excellent discussion on the *science* of "balanced" training. I'm not here to argue with folks. Use, or don't use what I suggest. But the science at this point is compelling.

I don't use my experience with one dog in the past to decide how I train my dogs going forward. I trust what we're learning from scientists which at this point, is pretty much unanimous.

Sorry, this only appears to be in Facebook, but it's more than an opinion piece. There are excellent citations contained within. If you don't have a FB account, maybe a friend can provide you the citations at least.

One of the things I appreciate most about this is the compassion that it shows for when the handler sometimes messes up. After all, being non-punitive applies to us as much as it applies to our dogs (or horses, kids, etc)

Anyhow, food for thought. Happy reading!

Kommetjie Canine College: https://www.facebook.com/KommetjieCanineCollege/posts/3286734261345178?__tn__=K-R
 

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That example is not good balanced training, it’s setting a dog up to fail and using a very strong, dangerous type of correction. It’s written from a biased perspective by someone who dislikes balanced training and is using an extreme example. That is the problem with using Facebook as a trusted source. It’s not, just someone’s opinion.
 

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That example is not good balanced training, it’s setting a dog up to fail and using a very strong, dangerous type of correction. It’s written from a biased perspective by someone who dislikes balanced training and is using an extreme example. That is the problem with using Facebook as a trusted source. It’s not, just someone’s opinion.
It’s a training academy site that posted this. The owner of that academy holds credentials that show a depth and breadth of knowledge. Credentials don’t mean everything of course, but they’re a good place to start. She isn’t a random “someone.”

More importantly, there are scientific citations, which if you read my post, I noted were the highlight of the article. For example, one of the citations discusses research published in the “Journal of Veterinary Behavior,” which is a peer reviewed veterinary journal.

Another citation is from “Animal Welfare“ which is “the established scientific and technical journal that brings together the results of scientific research and technical studies related to the welfare of animals kept on farms, in zoos, in laboratories, as companions ...”

One of the citations you ignore : researchers “from the School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania reported in the journal Applied Animal Behavior Science that using punishing techniques when training dogs tends to increase the aggression in the animals...”

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Facebook can be a platform for baseless opinions. It also can serve as an easy way for professionals to easily and broadly disseminate important information to the public that needs it. .

Most of my posts here have links included. I believe folks should know where I get my information and/or where to find more specific help. I put time and effort into getting this info because it’s helpful.

As I said, use the info or don’t.
 

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The example they used on their Facebook page is an old Kohler technique which is not used or recommended anymore. Trapping a dog in an enclosed area and exposing them to their fears, then yanking on their necks is not at all balanced. Balanced trainers would start from a distance and gradually work up toward closing the gap. They may never close the gap but they will try to get the dog used to other dogs through a mix of tools and methods, including rewards.

They may be accomplished but it’s disingenuous for them to portray something as representing an entire methodology when it does not. There is room here for different training styles. I had terrible experiences with positive only training which I have thoroughly documented here before, but I would never say it doesn't work for some people and some dogs. I have no idea why it is so important to you that you are trying to discredit an entire field of training, but it obviously is, so I won’t post more. I prefer to avoid arguments.
 

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Well, it really depends on the dog.

For mine, a sharp verbal "No" is as if I whacked him on the head with a club. His ears go back, his tail goes down, his mouth closes and he looks really miserable.

On the other hand, if he just looked at me and grinned and kept eating the bacon off the kitchen table...then I'd be looking into stronger methods! I would escalate as much as it took for my dog to respect/listen to me.

I honestly do not think that there is one universal magic training method that will work for any dog -
I do think that people sell more books and videotapes when they claim their method is the One, though...
 

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I feel compelled to say that "balanced traiing" is just that, balanced. 95 or even 98% is positive. Balanced just means that you are free to give negative feedback as well!

Imagine raising a child and NEVER saying NO, don't do that! Dogs are no different. Without any doubt, all good trainers will tell you that you NEED to set boundaries!

Truly, there are no "positive only" trainers. Though there are some who claim to be...in the end they all find it necessary to correct bad behavior at times.

Do your dog a favor and just communicate clearly. Honestly, they just want/need that. Do it consistently, do it fairly, and not with any anger...your dog will learn and appreciate your effort!
 
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