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2nd post...1st helped greatly. Thanks.

Left the name out knowing a quick google search will expose the breeder. Feel free to mention them. I think she'd be okay with it. :laugh2:

Drove 4 1/2 hours to visit a breeder and grabbed a lobster roll on my way out of, Maine. I liked the situation enough to take a ride out.

The farm is impressive. She has a nice piece of land with some really nice facilities.

She titles her dogs, runs the Maine Schutzhund Club, posts health screenings (Czech ratings 0/0 for sire/dam), training facility, etc.

Pup is 4 1/2 months old. Trained.

I saw him in action. The pup performed all the basic+ commands and more (See question below)...going through a long tube, up and over an a-frame, going around structures on command and apparently a "stop" for "stop play"...I missed it but asked later. He would lay down and chew the training aid while we were talking. Pup didn't want to leave the training center when we were going to visit his parents. Just laying there. It was funny.

Little time I was there, the pup showed his independence, good (not great) drive according to the breeder and a quick off switch. He did settle down often while I was there. haha

Dogs were not concerned with me at all...none of them were in the training center. Saw 3 pups. Outside, same thing. They were all around me (breeder really) but aside from an occasional quick pass, they were all off doing their own thing but always coming back.

Breeder says she will usually have a couple dogs she trains and the longer she has them, the price goes up. If nobody buys them, they end up in her breeding program/pet. No sales pitch here. She wanted to kick me off the farm to go haul some hay. JK Kind of.

Questions:
-What should a well trained shepherd be capable of at 4 1/2 months old?
-How much is the premium on a pup with a base of 1800-2k? I know there are variables. An estimate?
-Will the dog digress on some of the advanced training in my hands? Worth paying for this? Price is higher than I thought I would pay
-Health guarantee up to 2nd bday?
-Copy of parents health records or just proof?

Sire/Dam:
Elly z Vozovky (dob 11-28-15), 0/0 Czech rating
Porto z Tresnaku (7-15-12), IPO1, ZVV1, OFA 0/0 Czech rating

Thank you for any help you can provide.
 

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2nd post...1st helped greatly. Thanks.

Left the name out knowing a quick google search will expose the breeder. Feel free to mention them. I think she'd be okay with it. :laugh2:

Drove 4 1/2 hours to visit a breeder and grabbed a lobster roll on my way out of, Maine. I liked the situation enough to take a ride out.

The farm is impressive. She has a nice piece of land with some really nice facilities.

She titles her dogs, runs the Maine Schutzhund Club, posts health screenings (Czech ratings 0/0 for sire/dam), training facility, etc.

Pup is 4 1/2 months old. Trained.

I saw him in action. The pup performed all the basic+ commands and more (See question below)...going through a long tube, up and over an a-frame, going around structures on command and apparently a "stop" for "stop play"...I missed it but asked later. He would lay down and chew the training aid while we were talking. Pup didn't want to leave the training center when we were going to visit his parents. Just laying there. It was funny.

Little time I was there, the pup showed his independence, good (not great) drive according to the breeder and a quick off switch. He did settle down often while I was there. haha

Dogs were not concerned with me at all...none of them were in the training center. Saw 3 pups. Outside, same thing. They were all around me (breeder really) but aside from an occasional quick pass, they were all off doing their own thing but always coming back.

Breeder says she will usually have a couple dogs she trains and the longer she has them, the price goes up. If nobody buys them, they end up in her breeding program/pet. No sales pitch here. She wanted to kick me off the farm to go haul some hay. JK Kind of.

Questions:
-What should a well trained shepherd be capable of at 4 1/2 months old?
-How much is the premium on a pup with a base of 1800-2k? I know there are variables. An estimate?
-Will the dog digress on some of the advanced training in my hands? Worth paying for this? Price is higher than I thought I would pay
-Health guarantee up to 2nd bday?
-Copy of parents health records or just proof?

Sire/Dam:
Elly z Vozovky (dob 11-28-15), 0/0 Czech rating
Porto z Tresnaku (7-15-12), IPO1, ZVV1, OFA 0/0 Czech rating

Thank you for any help you can provide.
I don't know how this actually plays out in the real world, just some thoughts here. Like many things this boils down to supply and demand, and what someone including you, is willing to pay. The fact regarding the premium is that the puppy didn't sell when the rest of them did, unless this breeder specifically holds onto pups for longer to train, and is costing the breeder vet, time, feed, etc. every day that it stays with her. If she writes those costs off as negligible, then she will highly value her time and the training that is going into the dog.... and you will be at her mercy for what she thinks that is worth.

What a well trained pup is doing at any age is highly variable, based on the time/quality of training and the potential of the dog. Some breeders will offer to keep the puppy an extra amount of time, 3-6 weeks, for a set-price to train many basic behaviors. I have seen this for around $1500. This would be a similar thing here.

Just like what a pup will know at any age is variable, what they will forget is highly variable as well. If you value what the pup knows, and would seek to implement those behaviors, you are world's ahead at this point and it is far easier to maintain them than to teach them, from a time/education standpoint. If that is the case it also adds monetary value for you as well.
 

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At 4 and 1/2 months? Did she intentionally keep this pup back?


Honestly, I think it really depends on the dog. My breeder kept Katsu back because she originally wanted her for a SAR home. Then, when she felt Katsu developed a bit too much handler focus for wilderness live find, she was looking for a specific home that was interested in using her nose for sports. I got Katsu at 16 weeks for the same price as her siblings that were taken to their new homes 2 months before. She had excellent recall (mostly natural), she was crate trained and partially potty trained. She did not mouth/landshark.


A lot of this stuff I feel the puppy will forget for a short while when you bring it home. Katsu tried to fool me about being crate trained the first night.


I noticed your first post, you were looking for more of an active companion than a sport dog...does this training matter to you? I get sit, down, stay, etc, but the running around objects and climbing an a-frame doesn't really seem important for an active companion (IMO)


Ultimately, it's up to you. If you like the pup, the breeder seems like someone you'll get a long with (if you intended to keep in contact), and the price doesn't bother you...honestly, go for it.


Health guarantee is nice. Especially up to 2nd birthday. What would they do if the pup gets terribly sick or has HD? My breeder did not offer a full health guarantee until 2 (she does hips/elbows though), but because of my current issue with my girl, she has offered 1/2 off on my next pup from her (and I DO plan on getting another from her).


Honestly, I didn't ask to see the health records, I was following this breeder (on Facebook) for a while before I reached out with interest in getting a pup. I know you can search for OFA results on the OFA site. I'm not sure how the Working-Dog site works (if I'm looking at the right breeder), but if they have to submit a valid reference code for the health records, I'd imagine they're legit. Someone else would be better off answering this one.
 

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I got a well started 5.5 month old for a bit more than a pup would have been. He had spent time in a puppy raising home with 5 children and showed great off switch, medium drive. My kennel places more police and working dogs than sport dogs, so he wasn't well started on any flashy stuff like focused prancing heels or luring for position and stuff like that (which was fine with me) . He knew how to walk well on a lead, heel when asked, he knew "watch me" for demanded focus, he had great recall, sit, down, stay..he had excellent house manners, no landsharking, no jumping on kids, no taking food without permission. He did initially handler jump which meant a few popped lips for me(and only me) but we all survived that stage lol He was also initially a bit weirded out by my at the time 6 year old who is the size of a 4 year old and has a very off gait (cerebral palsey). That passed quickly though. SO, some handler jumping and he needed to get use to a non verbal kid who hoots and spins and walks like Frankenstein..and that was the extent of the mild transition.

Was the extra money worth it for me to not deal with training (or trying to train) for all above? Yes!!! I have 3 little kids, 2 are disabled, and I work (mostly from home, 3 days a week or so, but still a full time job).

If I did not have those constraints I'd most likely save the few extra hundred and start with a brand new pup and enjoy learning with him.

Keep in mind although I paid a few hundred extra, it does not mean I was off the hook for paying for training. On the contrary, I was determined not to ruin the investment and jumped right in with a trainer the breeder recommended and who knew my dog's lines.

You have to look at your situation, figure out what you want to do with this dog..the extra money you pay for him to be trained already pretty much equals what you would pay a trainer if you got him at 8 weeks. However, if you have the experience and skills to start a puppy in what you want to do..then I'd start with an 8 to 10 weeker :)

Good luck!
 

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2500 hundred. An 8 week old will be about 1800 to 2500. For a young puppy with some foundation that has been tested a little more, I would say 2500. Once you get into the 1 yr range it will be about 4500.
 

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My advice, keep looking at breeders. There is no reason to rush and buy the first puppy you find.

Canine Comeback in NH just had a nice litter too. A lot of nice litters right now.

I don't like 2 yr health guarantees. I don't like time limits placed on genetic health issues. Not that I would ever use it, my dog is my dog. It's a weird principle thing for me.


Just for the record....I've heard ONLY good about this breeder. The guarantee is a personal thing, not a reflection on this breeder.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I don't know how this actually plays out in the real world, just some thoughts here. Like many things this boils down to supply and demand, and what someone including you, is willing to pay. The fact regarding the premium is that the puppy didn't sell when the rest of them did, unless this breeder specifically holds onto pups for longer to train, and is costing the breeder vet, time, feed, etc. every day that it stays with her. If she writes those costs off as negligible, then she will highly value her time and the training that is going into the dog.... and you will be at her mercy for what she thinks that is worth.

What a well trained pup is doing at any age is highly variable, based on the time/quality of training and the potential of the dog. Some breeders will offer to keep the puppy an extra amount of time, 3-6 weeks, for a set-price to train many basic behaviors. I have seen this for around $1500. This would be a similar thing here.

Just like what a pup will know at any age is variable, what they will forget is highly variable as well. If you value what the pup knows, and would seek to implement those behaviors, you are world's ahead at this point and it is far easier to maintain them than to teach them, from a time/education standpoint. If that is the case it also adds monetary value for you as well.

@JBjunior Yeah, many variables and I know it's not an easy question, at least the way I posed it. I like the way you approached it. If I asked for them to keep the pup for an additional month to train, what do most quality breeders/traininers charge on top of base? 1500 puts most quality breeders around 3500 which is around what she's asking.
 

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The request for additional training changes the dynamics from just a puppy thst was held back. Typical board and train could run as high as 1500 for two weeks. Puppy price of 2000 plus board and train puts you at roughly 3500.
 

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Oh....And a 4.5 month old puppy is NOT trained. They may have been taught a few things but they are no where near trained.
 

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Just to offer another point of view. Puppy prices have an average going rate, just like anything else that you buy in our world. With life stock, there is an old axiom, that the training that the animal has its worth sometimes more than the other variables of the dog; since some of us may not have at our disposal, the knowledge to do it right, or the time and effort that this entails. One also needs to take in consideration, that there are lots of thriving trainers, who's main business is to correct bad behaviors that were instilled in the pup at their foundation early ages; by owners that thought that they were teaching or exposing the pup to the right behaviors, and the animal ended up with psyche scarring bad experiences or the wrong confusing commands.
In addition, the price that you pay for the dog, usually dwarfs in quantity, when you compare it to the monies that you will spend in the lifetime of your pack member, when you take into account: vet bills, food, additional training, entry fees and travel expenses to shows or sport eventing etc. etc.

The fact that you may pay more for a dog that you really like, and in addition, has the correct foundation already instilled in him, does not mean that you are being " taken"; it simply means that he/she is exactly what you are looking for, and the price is WORTH IT TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
Guaranteed, that you will not be alone in the group of people that have paid more for their dogs that the average accepted price range of this forum, for exactly what they were looking for (my hand is up as being one of them); but if he/she turns out to be exactly what you envision in a dog, the price paid will be not only worth it, but you will be so happy you made the decision to get him.
Lastly, no one is giving you the money to buy this GSD, so as how much you allocate for this purchase, its not anybody's business as to how you spend your hard earned $
 

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Discussion Starter #11
At 4 and 1/2 months? Did she intentionally keep this pup back?


Honestly, I think it really depends on the dog. My breeder kept Katsu back because she originally wanted her for a SAR home. Then, when she felt Katsu developed a bit too much handler focus for wilderness live find, she was looking for a specific home that was interested in using her nose for sports. I got Katsu at 16 weeks for the same price as her siblings that were taken to their new homes 2 months before. She had excellent recall (mostly natural), she was crate trained and partially potty trained. She did not mouth/landshark.


A lot of this stuff I feel the puppy will forget for a short while when you bring it home. Katsu tried to fool me about being crate trained the first night.


I noticed your first post, you were looking for more of an active companion than a sport dog...does this training matter to you? I get sit, down, stay, etc, but the running around objects and climbing an a-frame doesn't really seem important for an active companion (IMO)


Ultimately, it's up to you. If you like the pup, the breeder seems like someone you'll get a long with (if you intended to keep in contact), and the price doesn't bother you...honestly, go for it.


Health guarantee is nice. Especially up to 2nd birthday. What would they do if the pup gets terribly sick or has HD? My breeder did not offer a full health guarantee until 2 (she does hips/elbows though), but because of my current issue with my girl, she has offered 1/2 off on my next pup from her (and I DO plan on getting another from her).


Honestly, I didn't ask to see the health records, I was following this breeder (on Facebook) for a while before I reached out with interest in getting a pup. I know you can search for OFA results on the OFA site. I'm not sure how the Working-Dog site works (if I'm looking at the right breeder), but if they have to submit a valid reference code for the health records, I'd imagine they're legit. Someone else would be better off answering this one.
Thanks, Katsugsd. I'm interested in having a well training dog, that I'm the center of their world when it comes to work/play/bonding. Do I want to compete myself, not at the moment, but I am going to a local club on Wednesday to see if it's a good fit. It's more about training and bonding with my dog at this point.

I found one of the dogs on pedigree database and I'm sure I can find the other, i was just too tired to look after posting this.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The request for additional training changes the dynamics from just a puppy thst was held back. Typical board and train could run as high as 1500 for two weeks. Puppy price of 2000 plus board and train puts you at roughly 3500.
Hey Jax08...greatly healful
 

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Oh....And a 4.5 month old puppy is NOT trained. They may have been taught a few things but they are no where near trained.
Basically, everyone who responded has helped me validated what I was thinking. I was going to heed the boards advice the best I could but for the price, 4K, it's just too high.

I was concerned about the training sticking at the early stages of development. You and others validated this.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Oh....And a 4.5 month old puppy is NOT trained. They may have been taught a few things but they are no where near trained.
Just to offer another point of view. Puppy prices have an average going rate, just like anything else that you buy in our world. With life stock, there is an old axiom, that the training that the animal has its worth sometimes more than the other variables of the dog; since some of us may not have at our disposal, the knowledge to do it right, or the time and effort that this entails. One also needs to take in consideration, that there are lots of thriving trainers, who's main business is to correct bad behaviors that were instilled in the pup at their foundation early ages; by owners that thought that they were teaching or exposing the pup to the right behaviors, and the animal ended up with psyche scarring bad experiences or the wrong confusing commands.
In addition, the price that you pay for the dog, usually dwarfs in quantity, when you compare it to the monies that you will spend in the lifetime of your pack member, when you take into account: vet bills, food, additional training, entry fees and travel expenses to shows or sport eventing etc. etc.

The fact that you may pay more for a dog that you really like, and in addition, has the correct foundation already instilled in him, does not mean that you are being " taken"; it simply means that he/she is exactly what you are looking for, and the price is WORTH IT TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
Guaranteed, that you will not be alone in the group of people that have paid more for their dogs that the average accepted price range of this forum, for exactly what they were looking for (my hand is up as being one of them); but if he/she turns out to be exactly what you envision in a dog, the price paid will be not only worth it, but you will be so happy you made the decision to get him.
Lastly, no one is giving you the money to buy this GSD, so as how much you allocate for this purchase, its not anybody's business as to how you spend your hard earned $

@Soldes Great post. I've given it some thought and I'll wait some time to view and talk with others. The dog is a great dog but I think if I'm patient, I'll find another great dog/breeder to work with. I think it comes down to what Jax said about not jumping on the first pup I visit. :)

I too have paid more for things that were right for me at the right time. I like the idea of having a good foundation before the pup comes home with me
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Oh....And a 4.5 month old puppy is NOT trained. They may have been taught a few things but they are no where near trained.
Jax08...I just got off the phone with your good friend from, Vom Kugelblitz. Going to visit her tomorrow after work. Only 50 minutes from me.

She has pups on the ground: Dam is Annika. Sehnsucht is Sire.

Do you have an opinion on this litter? If you feel comfortable giving it. She said it would be a medium drive and not like some pups she produces that need exercise every single day or they go bonkers. :)

I'm definitely going to test the IPO waters but where it takes me, only time will tell.
 

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Those are Malinois. Not GSDs I like all her dogs. And she knows her stuff. If you want a Mal, she can help pick one for you.

But again, I think you should continue to go to places and really watch the dogs. You will find what you like.

As far as foundation not sticking.....thst depends on the handler. My boy is 5. We still fall back to foundation training. You can't just teach something and never revisit the basics.
 

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About 5 -6 years ago I finally decided on a GSD and I found a breeder after a very long search. I didn't have a clue about prices but had a budget in mind that I was going to stick to. Well, when I met the adult dogs I was impressed; beauty, brains and stability. Then after that I met the pups, who just happened to be 9 weeks old. But he was $500 more than I had budgeted. Then my brain asked me if I willing to walk away from this dog for this extra money. So he came home with me 2 weeks later. You just have to ask yourself if the higher price is worth what you are looking for. The purchase price is the least of the cost of raising a GSD, at least for us. Look into insurance before you get a pup.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Those are Malinois. Not GSDs I like all her dogs. And she knows her stuff. If you want a Mal, she can help pick one for you.

But again, I think you should continue to go to places and really watch the dogs. You will find what you like.

As far as foundation not sticking.....thst depends on the handler. My boy is 5. We still fall back to foundation training. You can't just teach something and never revisit the basics.
Maybe I heard her wrong then. I think it's worth the visit either way as I'm not opposed to waiting for the right litter, from the right breeder. Will be another to compare to at the very least.

I was hoping to go to Liberty Dog Club but the president can't meet until next week. Still looking into others.
 

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About 5 -6 years ago I finally decided on a GSD and I found a breeder after a very long search. I didn't have a clue about prices but had a budget in mind that I was going to stick to. Well, when I met the adult dogs I was impressed; beauty, brains and stability. Then after that I met the pups, who just happened to be 9 weeks old. But he was $500 more than I had budgeted. Then my brain asked me if I willing to walk away from this dog for this extra money. So he came home with me 2 weeks later. You just have to ask yourself if the higher price is worth what you are looking for. The purchase price is the least of the cost of raising a GSD, at least for us. Look into insurance before you get a pup.
Great point on insurance. I got a quote for GSD of $49 from, Healthy Paws.

I hear ya. I just wonder if all the training I'll be paying for is worth the money...like Jax said, owners are always going back to basics. I think I need to continue my search and learning to truly understand what the right fit is for both me and future pup.

$4K is a lot of money, even though it sure seems like he has a very solid training foundation.
 

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Maybe I heard her wrong then. I think it's worth the visit either way as I'm not opposed to waiting for the right litter, from the right breeder. Will be another to compare to at the very least.

I was hoping to go to Liberty Dog Club but the president can't meet until next week. Still looking into others.
No no!! I'm wrong!! Annika is Raina and Soren!! Those are GSDs. Sorry...multitasking and was thinking of Annecy.

Definitely go meet Jen and the pups. Her pups should be very versatile and able to do well in most anything. The sire is show line. Annika is WL.
 
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