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Tracie,

For studies supporting positive reinforcement training, please refer to <u>Applied Behavior and Training Volumes I, II and III </u>by Stephen Lindsay.

Lindsay's textbooks do a great job at pulling together studies from all over the world on behavior and learning in dogs.
 

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Originally Posted By: Susan FTracie,

For studies supporting positive reinforcement training, please refer to <u>Applied Behavior and Training Volumes I, II and III </u>by Stephen Lindsay.

Lindsay's textbooks do a great job at pulling together studies from all over the world on behavior and learning in dogs.
Thank you Susan, I will track them down and read them. I have an open mind
And love to learn.
 

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Originally Posted By: Timber1Just one question; do you have any idea what part of the brain a shock affects, say versus a tight jerk on a pronged collar.

I suspect you have no clue.

Before insulting me do a bit of research.

I guess I am talking to you, but I might do better with a pet rock.
Please enlighten those of us that don`t have our PHD`s. Hey if a very mild stimulation to the brain can help aggression and make a better happier obedient pet then I`m for it.
I have trained with about every kind of equipment there is over my 53 years and have had good results.
 

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Susan, this Mr Linsey you mention above is accredited to being contributory to the article that I posted for you to read (several times if I am reading the bibiography correctly)
 

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Yes, but you really need to look at his book and the context in which he was cited in your article. He is also cited frequently in books written by Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar and most positive-based behaviorists. They are also on the reading list for trainers seeking their CPDT, which requires a rejection of punishment-based training.

Lindsay does not really promote a position, he reports research. The books are dense, but they are all scientific based. He cites to research that has been published in peer-reviewed journals.

The article you posted is a paper written by and citing "research" conducted by the manufacturer of the devices. As I said in another post, and see no need to repeat it here, there is at the end of the article a warning against using the devices for dogs with aggression or phobia issues.

I do understand that there are people who have had success with the devices and I think that a temperamentally "hard" dog can respond to them, but for a dog with aggression issues, fear issues or a soft temperament, I think they do much more harm than good.

I also think that they easily lend themselves to abuse. I think the average nimrod that buys one of them from Petco takes it home, slaps it on Fido, and cranks it up to the highest setting (after all, he wants IMMMEDIATE results!). The nimrod has no timing or consistency so the dog is getting jolted over and over without understanding why. Then the nimrod dumps the dog in the pound because "it's stupid" and we go pick up the pieces.

I would like to read the 2003 research by Steiss. Lou Castle says it's "out for peer review," but that doesn't take 5 years.
 

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Originally Posted By: Susan F

I also think that they easily lend themselves to abuse. I think the average nimrod that buys one of them from Petco takes it home, slaps it on Fido, and cranks it up to the highest setting (after all, he wants IMMMEDIATE results!). The nimrod has no timing or consistency so the dog is getting jolted over and over without understanding why. Then the nimrod dumps the dog in the pound because "it's stupid" and we go pick up the pieces.
I TOTALLY AGREE with what you have posted in the above paragraph. It is because of this so called nimrod (I prefer idiot LOL) that I feel the e-collar is getting such a negative wrap. In the right hands, the e-collar is a magnificent tool. These so called nimrods DO expect the dogs to get "suddenly smart" by putting the collar on. Anyone with half a brain knows it does not work that way. Instead of condemning the collar, condemn Petsmart for selling them to any Tom, **** or Harry. Our company WILL NOT sell a collar to anyone without training.

I intend to read the studies that you said I should.

As for CPDT, I already knew their position on e-collars and found they were not the group for me though a couple of our trainers are members. I am currently working on a couple of training certs through IACP.
 

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I tend to think the use of an E-Collar does more harm then good, for specifically the reasons you and Susan stated.

And to think this post started because a kid got 100 stitches.

As for the studies regarding E Collars there is a wonderful behavior specialist that I hired to evaluate my dog. Her conclusions about the E Collar are much different then yours. However, I almost always get in trouble for posting/advertising someone else. One of her comments about the collar was the part of the brain it impacts.

Although a bit reluctant to do so, if you want her name send me a personal E Mail.

As for my personal observations, even a tick creates fear in a dog's eyes. And I suspect with my rescue GSD's, who are shy to begin with, an E Collar would not help me rehab them.
 

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This is SSOOO sad. I think that the owners are to blame. I have had dogs from the time I was a small child, many different breeds, from Great Pyr,to Akita/Malamute to peke-a-poo to my GSD,with others thrown in. From the time I can remember, my dad drummed into me that you can never trust a dog completely, because they don't have reason, and no matter how well trained, can act on instinct. My GSD cross was a rescue, and the first dog I had after the birth of my kids. He was NEVER left alone in the room with the kids, and if people were visiting, he was kept on leash, at my side. My kids (7yrs and 5 yrs) have also been taught about dogs. They would never dream of running up to a strange dog. They stand out of range of the leash and ask for permission to pet the dog before approaching.

I only wish more people would take precautions, because when this happens, it's a tragedy for everyone involved.

Diane
 
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