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Quote:Being a novice,perhaps I will change my mind,
I'm just curious on this point which you bring up. I myself have never owned or worked with a person reactive dog and so when I am asked for advice on how to work with them I bow out.

Through the years I've dealt with many dogs and some had issues with other animals but never people. I've been involved somewhat with rescue (very limited fostering) for about 6-7 years and so in some areas of rescue I am quite the novice.

So to get to my first statement, I am curious. You say your rescue gave you a dog they consider aggressive and you say you are a novice. Do you mean a novice such as to reactive dogs, a novice like you have only fostered one or two dogs, or a novice as in new to rescue? Also I have no idea of your previous experience with working with dogs so as far as I know you may have had many years of this type of thing. Why would the rescue you are with turn such a dog over to a "novice" if they really believed it to be aggressive and a possible threat. Again, I'm just very curious.

Oh another point I have a question about
Quote: are ways such as incorporating your efforts on behalf of the dogs, to avoid personal responsibility.
How would someone go about doing this?
 

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Timber- That’s a well thought out response and most behaviorist’s would agree with you. A very small percentage of bite cases are serious ‘pathological’ biters.

I’m with the girls that rescues shouldn’t take in biters- period. Your statement about avoiding personal liability just goes to show how seriously unbalanced the whole idea of rescue can get. Let’s say you do rehab a dog with a known bite record. You spend months working on this one dog and you get to the point where the dog is ’rehabilitiated’. The rescue then rehomes said dog and the worst happens. Now the rescue’s reputation is on the line and they will likely be dragged through the mud by the media. They are also in hot water with their adopter and yet another new dog bite victim. An incorporated rescue group might escape legal suits against any one individual in the group but the adopters are not going to have that same protection. You’ve now just put their butts on the line and they could loose all that they have spent a life time working for. Would that bother you? What would you say to the victim that was bit? Sorry… Tough luck?

I don’t think that all biters should be euthed or anything. It’s the responsibility of the owners to find a way to help their dogs after a bite while keeping the public safe at the same time. If they can’t do that then it’s kinder to euth them. At least the dog will have some comfort and peace in it’s final days.

The only other option for a bite case is to find a responsible dog owner that’s willing to take on the burden of that dog for the rest of the dog’s life. Even this isn’t the best solution as it can still come back on the original owners if the dog bites again.
 

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What is meant by 'aggressive'? There are different types & degrees of 'aggression'. Nor are all bites equal. They can range from no contact warning snaps to full bore attacks with serious follow through.

Countless people have told me how a dog 'tried to bite them'. Dogs rarely *try* to bite & fail. These claims are (IMO) a classic case of people failing to grasp even the rudiments of canine communication...(but we're the smarter species!)

My American Bulldog came with dominant aggression issues. She's certainly not red zone...not extreme & is both smart & ultimately biddable. She requires more diligence than my other dogs & has to be managed somewhat differently but she's not an especially tough case.

She's so different from my other dogs. She's helped me to be both smarter & better.

Because of her issues, I'd be hesitant to place her with rescue or another family. Handled badly & the poor girl could easily wind up dead, especially since she's often mistaken for a Pit Bull.

Tastes vary, but I'll take dominance aggression over fear aggression any day. I think it's easier to handle & less risky. I prefer dominance aggression to severe shyness or dogs that badly lack confidence. My household can overwhelm dogs that lack a bit of attitude, that don't have some chutzpah. This assumes the dogs are mentally sound & sane.
 

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Originally Posted By: Susan F

So, are you volunteering to "rehabilitate" the next German shepherd that bites a kid?

Sorry, but you just hit a nerve here. There's always a public outcry about a dog with a bite history "not getting a chance" because "somebody" can "rehabilitate" him/her. But, when the rubber hits the road, that "somebody" is in reality "somebody else." I never see hands raised to say, "Don't euthanize that dog because I will take him and rehabilitate him and accept the liability and the risk of losing my homeowners insurance!"
I actually did take one of those dogs. And he still lives with me after years. So yes there are some of us out there. Once I have room to foster again, I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. Just because a dog bites does NOT make him a bad dog. It depends on the situtaion the dog was in. If a dog has teeth it can bite. No matter how sweet and nice. Given the right situtation any dog will bite.
 

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Originally Posted By: Susan FTimber,

In addition, there are few people who are truly equipped to properly rehabilitate an aggressive dog. Just look at the Aggression forum on this board. It's fraught with people who believe that you can just slap a shock collar on the dog and zap it when it's misbehaving. IMHO, that doesn't rehab the dog.
Well since I am one of the people you refer, I'll answer this one. An E-collar can rehab a dog. I have several very successful stories. Blue included. And just as a side note, he does NOT wear his collar at all times, and still he does not attack the other dogs. Thats not rehabbing him? Then what would you call it? Just because I didn't use treats and praise? Attitudes like this make me see red. Maybe if people weren't so closed off to the E-collar, maybe less dogs would end up in shelters or PTS.
 

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Originally Posted By: Susan F
So, are you volunteering to "rehabilitate" the next German shepherd that bites a kid?

Sorry, but you just hit a nerve here. There's always a public outcry about a dog with a bite history "not getting a chance" because "somebody" can "rehabilitate" him/her. But, when the rubber hits the road, that "somebody" is in reality "somebody else." I never see hands raised to say, "Don't euthanize that dog because I will take him and rehabilitate him and accept the liability and the risk of losing my homeowners insurance!"
Beg to differ Susan. I did. Meet Reno>>>>>>>>>>>





I took this dog an hour before he was scheduled to be euthanized for sending a kid to the hospital. Along with his bite history, he came with dog aggression.

Was it an easy road to rehab him. No! It took about 6 months of daily dedication. Did I do it? YES! Three and a half years later, no bites. He is a company demo dog that is around hundreds of people and animals every year. Below is Reno and Carlie at a huge animal shelter event representing our dog training company.



I also noticed in another of your posts that you have a poor opinion of using an e-collar. I am sorry that you misunderstand how a good e-collar trainer CAN IN DEED "REHAB" an aggressive dog......not just "slap on the collar and shock it for misbehaving." Again, I am sorry to say that what I accomplished and maintained with this dog could not have happened with clickers or treats.

Reno is just one of "my" success stories with an aggressive dog and e-collar training.

Below is Reno and the rest of my pack.

 

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Originally Posted By: lish91883And just as a side note, he does NOT wear his collar at all times, and still he does not attack the other dogs.
We're not talking about dog-aggressive dogs here ... this is about people-reactive dogs. I wouldn't trust a people-reactive that has supposedly been "rehabbed" with a shock collar. It's my personal opinion and I feel very, very strongly about it.
 

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Quote:As for liability, I have no idea; opps I do After working for the US Treasury for 33 years, there are ways such as incorporating your efforts on behalf of the dogs, to avoid personal responsibility.
This isn't about avoiding personal responsibility, it's about ensuring that the business, Echo Dogs, can continue to exist. Yes, it is incorporated, but also thinly capitalized. One liability lawsuit will put it out of business.

In addition, incorporation doesn't necessarily protect the individual, if that individual had knowledge about the propensity of a dog to harm a person and failed to adequately disclose the information to the new owners.

Rescued dogs already get a bad rap. Most people in the general public think that they're "defective" anyway. So, I consider each adopted dog to be an ambassador for our group, for the breed and for rescued dogs as a whole. I just think it's bad practice to adopt out known biters.

Can they be rehabbed? Most often, yes. But also realize that with a transition, there is always backsliding on any behavior that was worked on in foster care. In the case of a biter, that backsliding can send your adopter to the hospital, into court and injure the name of the rescue, the German shepherd breed, and the image of all rescued dogs.

So, if a biter is going to be rehabilitated, it has to be done by its owners. It's really not the province of the rescue organization (unless its some place like Best Friends that has a sanctuary where they can keep dogs for years and work on issues).
 

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Originally Posted By: Susan F We're not talking about dog-aggressive dogs here ... this is about people-reactive dogs. I wouldn't trust a people-reactive that has supposedly been "rehabbed" with a shock collar. It's my personal opinion and I feel very, very strongly about it.
I understand that. I was replying to this....
Originally Posted By: Susan F
In addition, there are few people who are truly equipped to properly rehabilitate an aggressive dog. Just look at the Aggression forum on this board. It's fraught with people who believe that you can just slap a shock collar on the dog and zap it when it's misbehaving. IMHO, that doesn't rehab the dog.
My point is a dog CAN be rehabbed with a collar when the collar is in the right hands. Whether the aggression is dog or people. As a trainer I have handled both. And no offense I would trust an dog rehabbed with an E-collar before I would one that has been rehabbed by treats and praise. It's my personal opinion and I feel very, very strongly about it.
 

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Originally Posted By: lish91883My point is a dog CAN be rehabbed with a collar when the collar is in the right hands. Whether the aggression is dog or people. As a trainer I have handled both. And no offense I would trust an dog rehabbed with an E-collar before I would one that has been rehabbed by treats and praise. It's my personal opinion and I feel very, very strongly about it.
And would you then feel comfortable enough to place that dog into a stranger's home where you no longer have any control over how he's managed? That is what people are asking rescue groups to do when they beg us to take their biters and "find them a good home."

Again, our experience is that every dog that transitions will backslide a bit on their behavior. They rarely go back to ground zero, but they will backslide for about 2 weeks and then come around again.

I have no data on how dogs rehabbed on shock collars perform when they transition to a new home because we don't use them. We have had several dogs in our program that we have had to rehab from being abused with shock collars, but they weren't biters.
 

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Paris, the dog that was described by the shelter as mean/aggressive toward humans showed up about noon today.

The rescue dog is just fine, and I have not changed my opinion that German Shepherds are just big babies.

Yes, I am a novice when it comes to rescuing German Shepherds, and this dog could have easily been put to death. Someone asked me why I feel I am a novice and included were a few questions.

To that person you are right across the board, but for whatever reason my rescue group feels I can handle more aggressive dogs, and I do not disagree.

Susan mentioned one thing that I take very seriously. Most of the dogs coming from shelters might be a bit upset about their situation. But in my opinion they should never be considered mean or aggressive. Generally, they are shy and fearful, regardless of what the shelter said.

As for the financial issues and how to avoid substantial liability. Again, perhaps Susan touched on this but the key is Incorporate, keep your firm thinly capiltalized, and put the extra dollars somewhere else.

As for E Collars, shock the crap out of a dog, and obviously it will obey.

They may be quick and efficient, but the dog will never bond closely with the folks that advocate there use.

Another word about my new rescue. "I have no idea why this dog was taged with the aggressive comment. Based on the background info she was actually taken to obedience classes, did well, and medically was well cared for. She is AKC registered, ad with that comes the phone number of her initial family.

Suffice it to say I am considering calling the original owners and asking why they gave up the dog.
 

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Tracie,

I love your dogs and of course the pictures. And I will not elaborate on E-Collars, except as you know if impacts a different part of the dog's brain, and without exception makes the dog(s) more fearful.
 

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Originally Posted By: Timber1Tracie,

I love your dogs and of course the pictures. And I will not elaborate on E-Collars, except as you know if impacts a different part of the dog's brain, and without exception makes the dog(s) more fearful.
Really imagine that. No wonder half my electrician friends are so aggressive. Duh.
 

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Originally Posted By: Timber1Tracie,

I love your dogs and of course the pictures. And I will not elaborate on E-Collars, except as you know if impacts a different part of the dog's brain, and without exception makes the dog(s) more fearful.
Timber1 I would be more than happy to take any amount of time needed to read DOCUMENTED STUDIES that indicate and support/backup your above statement.

I have DOCUMENTED STUDIES that I believe prove otherwise should YOU like to take the time to read it
 

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Originally Posted By: kutzro357
Originally Posted By: Timber1Tracie,

I love your dogs and of course the pictures. And I will not elaborate on E-Collars, except as you know if impacts a different part of the dog's brain, and without exception makes the dog(s) more fearful.
Really imagine that. No wonder half my electrician friends are so aggressive. Duh.
Thanks for the chuckle kutzro357 LOL Try not to bite anybody today ok LOL
 

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Originally Posted By: Timber1
As for E Collars, shock the crap out of a dog, and obviously it will obey.

They may be quick and efficient, but the dog will never bond closely with the folks that advocate there use.
Clearly you have no clue how good e-collar trainers use e-collars. Never have I had a dog so much as pass wind from the proper use of an e-collar much less actually crap from it.


The second comment is SO OFF BASE. Again, you have no clue what type of bond I have with my dogs and to try to explain it with the current mind set.........I would just as soon talk to the tree in the front yard.
 

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Just one question; do you have any idea what part of the brain a shock affects, say versus a tight jerk on a pronged collar.

I suspect you have no clue.

Before insulting me do a bit of research.

I guess I am talking to you, but I might do better with a pet rock.
 

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Tracie,

I would love to see the studies on shock collars. I'm not being sarcastic, just in case my tone doesn't come through in the post.

I've challenged their use based on my education in physics, biochemistry, physiology, behavior and psychology. I have just never seen a peer-reviewed study supporting their use or substantiating the pathway by which they are effective.

Please provide references. I really am interested.
 

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Originally Posted By: Timber1Just one question; do you have any idea what part of the brain a shock affects, say versus a tight jerk on a pronged collar.

I suspect you have no clue.

Before insulting me do a bit of research.

I guess I am talking to you, but I might do better with a pet rock.
Show this pet rock your study PLEASE....you've been asked before but none have been forthcoming
 

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Originally Posted By: Susan FTracie,

I would love to see the studies on shock collars. I'm not being sarcastic, just in case my tone doesn't come through in the post.

I've challenged their use based on my education in physics, biochemistry, physiology, behavior and psychology. I have just never seen a peer-reviewed study supporting their use or substantiating the pathway by which they are effective.

Please provide references. I really am interested.
I am looking it up Susan
Your tone is fine
 
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