How about those Breeder, Breeding threads. - Page 5 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #41 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:37 PM
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Andy threads always get interesting.
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post #42 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:39 PM
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It's just fundamental common sense that you're not going to get a lot of support for breeding outside the standards (or without testing of any kind, be it health or temperament) on a forum dedicated to a specific breed with a specific set of standards. And those "sport people" who have all the "power" here are going to be particularly passionate about it because it's what they work with and what they work to preserve every day.

Like I said- this sentiment is echoed on every forum about every breed. There's really not a lot of wiggle room for discussion on what makes a good breeder anywhere. You should see horse people get going, if you think it's bad here.

To echo Jax's sentiment, my cruddy BYB dog (I'm being tongue-in-cheek here) has been just as kindly received as my well-bred, sport-pedigree dog.
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post #43 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
How about those working line people with standards. They are so mean.
This is the quote I was referring to. I did not mean to imply you specifically were drinking the cool aid. If you don't like the thread don't post.

I don't ask for permission or advice before I start a thread.

Love Echo, Jax can take care of herself as you have just seen.
Love Echo many of my threads are on the breed standard and what a GSD should be. The fact that many aren't is a huge concern to me.
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post #44 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveEcho View Post

Darn those people who came up with the breed standard! What jerks! Who do they think they are? And what about those jerks who think that it's important to stick to those to maintain the breed we ALL love? Gosh! Why are standards important? People breed themselves without standards, and look at us!
Well someone once posted The standard or its interpretation allows for the fallacy we see in the breed today.. Thoughts on that?

Misty- Samoyed Mix, Tannor- Golden Retriever CGC
Robyn- GSD CGC, TC, Midnite-GSD CGC,TC, Brennan-Golden Retriever CGC, Batman-Husky/Greyhound , Apollo-GSD
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post #45 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JakodaCD OA View Post
My feeling is rather what ugavet somewhat posted.

Most new and some old posters, (not being specific, just a generalization), don't like the answers to their questions. They come on here all gung ho on breeding Fido, and when someone points out why it probably shouldn't be done, they get all defensive, peeved, leave, and do what they are going to do..They come for validation and when they don't get it, they get into a tizzy.

And it's not just the breeding aspect , it could be any topic..

I admit I can absolutely lose patience and probably post things that aren't all sweet and nice or what one might want to hear. BUT I have never ever said any dog posted on this forum was 'ugly' or doesn't deserve to have the best life ever or put down where the dog came from.

I don't care that my working line dog(s) haven't been 'worked' or shown in years..I just don't do it anymore, they are for my enjoyment and fill my life daily..I don't care what others think.

I DO think breeders should be held to a higher standard, be producing the best they can, and I think the breeders on this forum, when they do contribute something should be taken seriously because the majority of them have been doing it for years , and are a wealth of knowledge.

When one posts something, they should be prepared to hear the good with the bad and decide for themselves what is worth listening to and what isn't..

In general, the breeders' posts have educated me the most about GSDs specifically. I am grateful they take the time to type enough to really explain things.

I feel bad when new people are ambushed and then don't come back. I don't know the answer to that because I think posters should tell the "truth."

I think there is a lot of bashing of ASL versus WGSL versus working lines. Human nature to think theirs is best? I have enjoyed the posts about working lines and LE, SAR, detonation, etc., and have learned a lot. My dog is a WGSL.

I guess I am most grateful for the help everyone gives to help me understand more about this amazing breed of dog. They also help me to be a good dog owner.

I think there are wonderfully supportive people here. When dogs get sick or pass, posters really have a big heart.

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post #46 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lucy Dog View Post
Andy threads always get interesting.
Specifically designed to pull people like you out of the woodwork.
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post #47 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:45 PM
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I'm confused Jack's Dad. You've said on multiple threads that the only ones that should voice an opinion about breeding are the breeders, yet now anyone that follows what the breeders and "experienced" are saying are "drinking the koolaid." SO, who should we followers follow? Who should we support?

I think it's crappy to demean a person's stance by saying they are "drinking the koolaid." Why can't someone agree with people that are in the thick of the breed, testing it, breeding it, washing it, etc...It's like anyone that wants to hold things to a standard is "mean." I hate that taking a stance on a subject is "drinking the koolaid" and that disagreeing and stating why is "bashing" and "chasing people off." It's ridiculous.

Also, I get that you want to appease to everyone's "feelings" and not chase people off. However, I am of the opinion that some people have no ability to take anything other than defensively and personally.

I agree with pretty much everything LoveEcho pointed out, are you going to address any of her points and stances, Jack's Dad? She's made a lot of good statements, about experience, knowledge, how it's gained....the standard...why some seem to take things so personally. You just keep answering those that are placating to the emotion of this thread, instead of answering your questions and concerns.

Edit: Removed my last paragraph.

"An excess of size is an unserviceable feature for breeding, his powers of endurance, his speed and the smartness of his movements suffer in all circumstances. Giants are never nimble."-Creator of GSD

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post #48 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:45 PM
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I agree that there HAS to be standards, and that's the best way to maintain the integrity of the breed. However, you can take two of the best dogs in the world, get them all the titles (herding, IPO, tracking, SAR, whatever) and then breed them to each other. They have 7 puppies. How many of the pups are going to be able to do everything that the sire and dam did?
It's a crapshoot and always has been. It's the old nature vs nurture argument.
Conversely, back the "old days", we got police K9's from the shelter. I had two of them that I worked. An old time trainer told me "sure, I can train a shelter dog to do K9 work, it's just a matter of how many times the handler gets bit during that training".
In the end, performance matters.
In my humble opinion, and to quote Judge Smails from Caddyshack, "The world needs ditch diggers too."
Not everyone wants (or can handle) a WL dog. I've also done enough work in GSD rescue to know what happens when they try.
I've heard breeders use that argument to explain higher fees for the best working prospects.

He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true~ to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. ~unknown
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post #49 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:53 PM
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I agree, Randy. Just because the parents are great, doesn't mean the offspring will be. But some of those puppies will work, maybe all to some degree, and some are more suitable for pets. Everybody can't be a superstar.

BUT, I also think this is where good breeders come in. They will know what a dog is throwing. They can guestimate what the litter should produce. It's not fool proof. But what I see with inexperienced people that just want to experience the joys of birth or want Fifi's daughter to raise is they throw dogs together that have issues and create more dogs with issues. That's where I have problems. Because, as an experienced foster, how many times have you seen just a genetic hot mess full of anxiety?

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post #50 of 204 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by llombardo View Post
Well someone once posted The standard or its interpretation allows for the fallacy we see in the breed today.. Thoughts on that?
I think it's Cliff that posted that? Seems like a Cliff thing. Always a good discussion starter. It is true- be it angulation or whatever "extreme" we see. I don't think it has anything to do with blatantly breeding ultra low-drive, oversized, whatever dogs... dogs who are so far outside the standard that it can't even begin to be an interpretation of the standard...

I think most of the fallacy we see in the breed today is because of Joe Shmoe breeding their "pet" because they're uber protective and really big! The number of badly bred BYB dogs probably outnumbers the carefully bred dogs... just in my own observations, what I see daily. GSD's are really common here, and only a fraction of them are fine (or even marginal) examples of the breed. I think that's a much more prominent (and I mean this in terms of scale and numbers, not severity) issue than breeding for too much angulation, breeding dogs who were pushed to an IPO3 at club level but have crap temperament, etc.

In terms of the "a few people dictate what breeders are acceptable", I LOVE opening the "is this a good breeder?" threads. I open every one of them. The ONLY ones who are universally negatively received are the ones who are breeding dogs so far outside the standard it's not an "interpretation." In fact, there's a number of threads where the general stream of thought is, "well, they do at least health test their dogs, so if you're really interested, go ahead and meet the breeder, the parents, etc." Sure, there's political stuff about breeders in the sport realm, but I've seen some pretty even-keel suggestions when people ask for ASL breeders, WGSL breeders, etc. There's even been, *gasp* good debate on if the standards are relevant, etc. There's a lot of nuances in sport and working dog worlds where they get really in depth into temperament and drives and pedigrees and whether so-and-so produces dogs who are all prey and no defense etc etc. I can't really say I've seen that translate towards "pet" people though. I've even seen a lot of the reputable working and sport people on here say that when a pet owner is looking for a dog, titles aren't necessarily the be-all-end-all.

As others have mentioned... there are a great number of seriously knowledgable people here who no longer post because the political climate has actually made it so that they feel they can't be honest to "pet" people. (Not pet people, "pet" people.)

Last edited by LoveEcho; 08-26-2014 at 09:57 PM.
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