To breed or not to breed, that is the question... - Page 5 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #41 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Wild View Post
Because it assumes that the shelter dog and the dog purchased from a breeder are the same, with equivalent traits. This is only very rarely the case. Most often, they are apples and oranges.

Now if someone is just looking for a sound family pet and doesn't have particular requirements for breed, size, color, etc... then certainly they may be able to find this dog in a shelter. If they are looking for a sound family pet that is also a purebred of a specific breed, their chances drop but it is still possible.

If, as has been said previously in the thread, someone is looking for a dog for a specific purpose... competition in any number of sports, police work, SAR, guide work, service work, show, then the chances of them finding such a dog in a shelter are very slim. If they want documented pedigree and known ancestry on the dog... which isn't just for ego but can provide valuable insight into any health or temperament problems that may be present in the bloodlines and thus arise in the future... then the chances of finding that in a shelter are pretty much zero.

So bottom line, for many pet owners the shelter is a viable option. For pet owners looking for something specific, it often is not. For people looking for dogs for sport or work, they'd have a better chance finding a needle in a haystack in most cases. Thus, there is really no competition. The shelter doesn't offer what some people want, and breeders are the only option. Likewise, the breeders with proven track records of producing quality dogs that can succeed in a variety of endeavors are typically not the ones whose dogs end up in the shelter.

So it is absolutely NOT correct to say that when they buy from a breeder a shelter dog dies, because what they want isn't going to be found in the shelter.

When my children were young all of our family dogs (pets) were rescues or strays that wondered into our yard. They were wonderful and loving and fulfilled the purpose for which they were needed.

Move ahead years later and when I began looking for a dog for me and my purposes I went to a breeder.

I have been involved in rescue and a bit of fostering for years. I pulled, dropped off & picked up dogs from the vet, transported, fund raised, joined groups, took and posted pictures on websites, and did home checks for rescues out of area that were adopting to people in my area. For a couple of years I sat on the Board of Directors for our local humane society. Besides the local HS I also did work with our county animal shelter and was part of a team that helped bring it from a high kill to low kill shelter. I know the highs of saving and the heart break of dogs being euthanized.

I do not go along with that saying about buying a dog from a breeder means a shelter dog dies. I will not let anyone lay blame on me for any dog dying. I could very well turn around and claim that because of them adopting only 1 dog from a rescue or buying only 1 dog from a shelter instead of two that they allowed a dog to die.

I have been a CGC Evaluator for a long while and I would say about half the dogs I have passed were full blooded and about half were mixes. The same ratio probably pretty close to those I have failed. So for pets for families this testing goes along with my previous statement that a good family pet (or even a pet for an individual) a rescue is a wonderful choice. I always recommend a rescue over a shelter dog for a family with children as most rescues have had the dog longer and a good many have had them in a foster setup of some type.

I am also very involved with Assistance aka Service Dogs for people with disabilities. I know how hard it is to find the proper dog for the work. I have evaluated dogs in shelters and found many that would make a great pet but never one that I thought was suitable to be pulled as a SD Candidate. I know many people who claim to have done so and I have seen some of the dogs during and after training.

I am in the process of looking for a new pup for myself. It hasn't been easy as I have a want list that some items I could work around while some I hold as a very high priority. For this I need to go to a breeder who I can trust to be looking out for my needs as much as finding a good home for their pups. I need a breeder who knows about the parents and the grandparents and how siblings and others in the family lines have turned out. I need more than finding a pup that will grow up to be friendly with my guests and loving to family. I need a pup that I can raise and train to be my working partner in several venues.

As Chris mentioned track records for working dogs -- I need a pup from lines with certain proven track records. I need a dog that will grow to at a least a minimum height. I need a dog that has a very good chance to have a good work ethic and solid balanced temperament.

TJ aka Theresa A. Jennings
Pyro vom Wildhaus aka Kaleb ~S.T.A.R.~
Family Companion, Non-Profit Mascot, In-Home Service Dog


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post #42 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 03:29 PM
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nice point in bold. yeah, the guilt trips are annoying. it makes the rescue movement lose credibility when they resort to this kind of stuff.


ETA though that point only works for people thst wouldn't adopt if there were no breeders. if a person would've adopted if there were no breeders then there's logic in it. but i don't agree with these tactics. I didn't put any dogs in the shelter. I don't owe it to pick up other people's slack. I do feel bad for the dogs but this is never ending. more dogs keep turning up. I can see myself helping out if there was an end in sight. there's not. something needs to be changed.

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post #43 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 03:38 PM
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Of those a small percentage ended up being able to do the job.
but how many purebreds from breeders wash out?
i mean we could go on all day but truth is many shelters dogs do make wonderful pets and also working dogs
my response anyway was towards people who believe you have to buy a dog to make it a bomb or drug dog and that is not the case
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post #44 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 03:41 PM
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I have had rescue dogs and I've had dogs from breeders. Each one I got for a reason. I don't hold it against anyone who chooses to do either.

I don't feel guilty about buying from a breeder, I'm looking for something specific, I'm looking for healthy solid backgrounds. To each his own

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post #45 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 03:44 PM
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If I opt not to get a dog at all, does that mean a shelter dog dies as well? That's why that phrase is a little skewed. Getting a dog from a breeder,doesn't mean that the spot in my home now can't be filled by a shelter dog. That spot was never going to be available for a shelter dog. *shrug* Sorry, but that's the truth. I'm not bothered by other people's perceptions and ideologies. I have to make the best decision for me and my household.

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post #46 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 04:09 PM
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My opinion on the "what about all the dogs in a shelter, no one should buy from breeders, etc, etc, etc..."

There aren't so many dogs in shelters because people are buying from breeders. There are so many dogs in shelters because people in our society have lost the ability to care for animals throughout changes in their life or the dogs and have not educated themselves on what it takes to raise one. They don't think about the money it costs to care for a dog, they don't consider vet bills, or food bills, etc. and they are uneducated on dogs and their behavior. You have people giving them up because they are too old, they are sick, they are big, they are small, they moved, had babies, their kid poked the dog and it growled, etc. THAT is why there are dogs in shelters and that's why they are put down so often. The blame cannot be put on the breeders, this is our society that has caused that to happen.

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post #47 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 04:42 PM Thread Starter
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Agreed

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Originally Posted by wyoung2153 View Post
My opinion on the "what about all the dogs in a shelter, no one should buy from breeders, etc, etc, etc..."

There aren't so many dogs in shelters because people are buying from breeders. There are so many dogs in shelters because people in our society have lost the ability to care for animals throughout changes in their life or the dogs and have not educated themselves on what it takes to raise one. They don't think about the money it costs to care for a dog, they don't consider vet bills, or food bills, etc. and they are uneducated on dogs and their behavior. You have people giving them up because they are too old, they are sick, they are big, they are small, they moved, had babies, their kid poked the dog and it growled, etc. THAT is why there are dogs in shelters and that's why they are put down so often. The blame cannot be put on the breeders, this is our society that has caused that to happen.
I believe that the problem with so many dogs in the shelters is mostly what you are saying. I think it's irresponsible owners, people who aren't fit to be dog parents for whatever reason. Also not spaying and neutering, they give the puppies away, the puppies end up with other irresponsible pet owners, and those puppies get dumped and end up in a shelters not always but I would say its 50/50. Also to the person who asked me that poignant question, where do dogs from shelters come from. I think I just explained it above but let's look at "reputable breeders" shall we? A breeder breeds the dogs, and sells them to someone. The person has the dog for a while gets annoyed and doesn't want it anymore. They can return the dog to the breeder for free,they can sell it themselves and make a buck, or if they moved out of state the likelihood of them returning the dog is null so they again, sell it or give it away for free. In every scenario BUT returning the dog to a breeder, the new family could in essence dump the dog in a shelter after the novelty wears off. I do agree that not as much blame should be placed on adopters buyers as it should be placed on the owners, but then... Couldn't they end up being the same people? So therefore the blame is directed correctly? Then again, I don't set out to blame people or force my opinions on people, I am more interested in open dialogue and sharing ideas to reach an understanding. I don't agree with people who set out to shame others.mokay the end :-)
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post #48 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 04:47 PM
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My first GSD was a rescue. I loved him, but he was a nervy, anxious, fear-biting mess. When his epilepsy escalated and he became too much of a danger to me and the people who lived with me, I had to make the decision to put him down. I knew I wanted another shepherd after him, but dealing with his anxiety and aggression was EXHAUSTING and he wasn't even around for years like some of the fear aggressive dogs other forum members care for.

When I went to get my second GSD, I knew I wanted stable temperament and good health. I tried all kinds of rescues in my area, but I was immediately rejected by every single one because I was in my last year of college and I was going to be in an apartment after I moved out of the shared house. So no matter what GSD I found that may fit into my lifestyle, the rescue refused to adopt to me. Does that mean I don't deserve a GSD? I maybe could have gone the shelter route, but very little is known about their background, health is a crapshoot, and I just went through a year of dealing with a worst case scenario of both, so I felt like I was justifiably concerned about getting a shelter GSD.

Finally, I researched an excellent hobby breeder (UKC registry). They work and health test their dogs. They have extensive information and good contacts with the owners of all the parents and grandparents going four generations back. They had previous customers who I was allowed to call and ask about how their dogs were doing three, five, seven years down the line. They will take back any of their dogs at any point in case anything happens (they were in the process of rehoming a dog when I got there after its owner was diagnosed with cancer). They have even tracked down their own dogs out of shelters and pulled them to find appropriate homes. They are not a big operation. They are more what someone might call a hobby breeder, but they have clear intentions to produce dogs with excellent health, temperament, and nerves.

To say that my dog killed a homeless dog when I bought him is ridiculous to me. A rescue would not adopt to me, and I was not going to adopt from a shelter. If I hadn't found a reputable breeder, I simply would not have gotten a dog. It doesn't matter what dogs are in the shelter, I was not going to adopt them anyways. Maybe much later in my life, I will consider adopting again, but it won't be happening anytime soon, and it certainly was not going to happen at the point that I was looking for a new dog.

It's even more ridiculous to me the notion that Kaiju's breeders have contributed to the shelter population when they have actively tracked down their own dogs that have been given up for whatever reason and pulled them from shelters and used their own resources to find them new homes.

If you truly want to continue saying that, I would suggest learning more about a backyard breeder vs a responsible breeder and clarifying your statement to "backyard breeders contribute to overpopulation".
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post #49 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BARBIElovesSAILOR View Post
I believe that the problem with so many dogs in the shelters is mostly what you are saying. I think it's irresponsible owners, people who aren't fit to be dog parents for whatever reason. Also not spaying and neutering, they give the puppies away, the puppies end up with other irresponsible pet owners, and those puppies get dumped and end up in a shelters not always but I would say its 50/50. Also to the person who asked me that poignant question, where do dogs from shelters come from. I think I just explained it above but let's look at "reputable breeders" shall we? A breeder breeds the dogs, and sells them to someone. The person has the dog for a while gets annoyed and doesn't want it anymore. They can return the dog to the breeder for free,they can sell it themselves and make a buck, or if they moved out of state the likelihood of them returning the dog is null so they again, sell it or give it away for free. In every scenario BUT returning the dog to a breeder, the new family could in essence dump the dog in a shelter after the novelty wears off. I do agree that not as much blame should be placed on adopters buyers as it should be placed on the owners, but then... Couldn't they end up being the same people? So therefore the blame is directed correctly? Then again, I don't set out to blame people or force my opinions on people, I am more interested in open dialogue and sharing ideas to reach an understanding. I don't agree with people who set out to shame others.mokay the end :-)
But that's just it. A "reputable breeder" is going to be in contact with those the adopt to. They are going to know the ins and outs of what is going on and often times there is a clause in the contract about returning the dog back to the breeder if they cannot care for it anymore. Not only that but MOSTLY, reputable breeders are pretty good at screening people who adopt, not saying some don't fall through the crack but generally speaking they are a good judge of character. And someone paying $1500-$2500 for a puppy isn't going to "get bored" and all of a sudden give it away.. unless they are rolling in cash, and well.. then they can afford that. And reputable breeders WILL take their dogs back and not put them into shelters..

A Back yard breeder is another story. Someone who has a litter of puppies for no other reason than selling them to make a profit. Those are the types of breeders that "we" encourage others to stay away from. They have no intentions for their dogs other than breeding and making money, they usually have no education on dogs, and no idea where they came from, or anything with their health history. They are there to make a buck. The pump out puppies on demand because it's a business to them. They won't take dogs back, they don't care what happens to them after they are sold.

This still doesn't mean that the blame is placed on breeders, even BYB (though some will argue that). In the end the blame, because yes it can be placed, is on society and the ignorance of people owning dogs. The lack of rules and regulations taken seriously in regards to owning and raising a dog. I can repeat what I said above, but those that are to blame are the people that dump them, then turn around and get another thinking it will be different.

v/r,

Whitney
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post #50 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BARBIElovesSAILOR View Post
I think I just explained it above but let's look at "reputable breeders" shall we? A breeder breeds the dogs, and sells them to someone. The person has the dog for a while gets annoyed and doesn't want it anymore.
A reputable breeder isn't selling dogs to any old person. The breeder I got Kaiju from has rejected people because they were not prepared for a puppy, were looking for a first dog and it was obvious a shepherd wasn't for them, came in asking just for a certain color without any concern about the dog's temperament. A reputable breeder screens so their dogs have the best chance at getting a home where they stay permanently.

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They can return the dog to the breeder for free,they can sell it themselves and make a buck, or if they moved out of state the likelihood of them returning the dog is null so they again, sell it or give it away for free. In every scenario BUT returning the dog to a breeder, the new family could in essence dump the dog in a shelter after the novelty wears off.
If a dog doesn't work out, reputable breeders WANT their dog back. They often keep up communication with people who have bought their dogs. I give Kaiju's breeders a call every few months to update them on how he is doing. If I didn't call, they would probably send me an email and make sure everything is alright. They keep up similar relationships with all their customers. Some they have yearly contacts with, some more often. But reputable breeders aren't just throwing their dogs out into the world and hoping for the best. Even after their dogs leave the house, they are often keeping tabs on them.

Plus, it is in Kaiju's contract and possibly many other contracts with reputable breeders that the breeders have right of first refusal. If you want to sell the dog or hand it over to rescue, you HAVE the contact the breeder first and give the breeder the option of taking it before you can sell it or give up to rescue. If not, the breeder can and most likely will take legal action against you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BARBIElovesSAILOR View Post
I do agree that not as much blame should be placed on adopters buyers as it should be placed on the owners, but then... Couldn't they end up being the same people? So therefore the blame is directed correctly? Then again, I don't set out to blame people or force my opinions on people, I am more interested in open dialogue and sharing ideas to reach an understanding. I don't agree with people who set out to shame others.mokay the end :-)
Many people who go to reputable breeders are not the ones giving up dogs because they got too big or drooled too much. You're thinking of those who often buy from backyard breeders. People who go to reputable breeders and pass a breeder's evaluation to buy one of their dogs are probably one of the least likely to give up a dog because they have gotten a dog that they probably fully understand vis a vis temperament, health, and basic health and training requirements. Again, I think you need a lot more education before you throw out inflammatory statements like these.
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