My experiment; early prong use - Page 9 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #81 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 01:48 PM
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post #82 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
Valid question, I could have worded that better. But it was late and I didn't have the energy to edit it. There are some outliers that I'm sure would prove to be challenging! Very weak nerved dogs and handler aggressive dogs can be tough to work with, no question!

What I was trying to say is that a dog that "can" be trained can be trained just as well using other methods. And I strongly believe that! That being said, I don't participate in dog sports, nor have I ever titled a dog in one. So maybe I'm just naive

I'm not at all against easier nor am I against correctly using prong collars. I just don't believe there's only "one" way to teach a dog anything, and often it seems to me like people who use prong or e collars, at least, state it that way...

Of course, had I known that the dogtra had a dance mode, my experiences in dog training would probably have been way different...
To the part I bolded... I find it funny that I see it go the other way more. People who absolutely will not use anything other than a flat collar (or martingale, or easy walk harness, or whatever else they deem less cruel then a prong or an ecollar) truly seem to condemn the use of correction collars.

I firmly believe that you need to adjust your training to each dog. That includes which tools you use. I currently have three dogs, each with very different temperaments, each with different balance of drives. While I did do some things the same for each (luring, shaping, etc), once weíve moved to the next step, theyíve all needed different methods, different motivators AND different tools. It also depends what my goals are for each dog. I donít go into sport training assuming Iíll ďneedĒ an ecollar or a prong, but Iíve found that for fine tuning, an ecollar works great and a prong can be extremely versatile, as well. Building drive with a prong is not something most people who donít train in dog sports would think about. Itís not always used to squash a behavior or to correct a dog.

My male, who doesnít have the most appropriate temperament, has benefited greatly from the use of an ecollar. It clarified things for him in a way that no other training/proofing had. Had I been firmly against the use of that tool, he would reqire much more management, and have a less full life. But just because it worked well for him, I donít assume EVERY dog will respond the way he did. I donít use it much for my girl, who is very appropriate and biddable. When she was still doing IPO, I did use the ecollar to fine tune some things, but for day to day training, it just wouldnít benefit her. Different dogs. Different temperaments. Different responses to tools. My puppy is only 6 months old, I donít yet know which tools I will use for him. Right now, itís a martingale collar. Who knows what the future will bring.

All that said, I believe the judgement that comes with using certain tools to be a little tiresome. Of course there is a wrong way to use them. But there is also a wrong way to use a flat collar. And just because you (general you) havenít found use for them in the type of training you are doing with one dog, does not mean that there is no place for those tools, period. It also doesnít mean that you could absolutely, hands down, train MY dog (or any other dog) with your methods. If you can train your dog to walk nicely in public on a flat collar, thatís wonderful for you. If you can get through rally class with a martigale, thatís wonderful, too. But just because you can do those things does not mean you are a better trainer than someone who chooses different methods. It just means that the methods you prefer happen to work for your dog, in your situation.

Train the dog in front of you.
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post #83 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 03:00 PM
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For your average 5 month old puppy I feel like prong use could be detrimental to the early bonding stages between you and the pup (great way to squash a soft dog). A lot of it depends on the temperament of that individual dog and owner.

Sigh.... yes. Yesterday I worked with a 15 week old Bichon Frisee. What do you think I used for that pup?
Honestly I don't even want to know...

SQUIRREL!
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post #84 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 03:00 PM
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To the part I bolded... I find it funny that I see it go the other way more. People who absolutely will not use anything other than a flat collar (or martingale, or easy walk harness, or whatever else they deem less cruel then a prong or an ecollar) truly seem to condemn the use of correction collars.

I firmly believe that you need to adjust your training to each dog. That includes which tools you use. I currently have three dogs, each with very different temperaments, each with different balance of drives. While I did do some things the same for each (luring, shaping, etc), once weíve moved to the next step, theyíve all needed different methods, different motivators AND different tools. It also depends what my goals are for each dog. I donít go into sport training assuming Iíll ďneedĒ an ecollar or a prong, but Iíve found that for fine tuning, an ecollar works great and a prong can be extremely versatile, as well. Building drive with a prong is not something most people who donít train in dog sports would think about. Itís not always used to squash a behavior or to correct a dog.

My male, who doesnít have the most appropriate temperament, has benefited greatly from the use of an ecollar. It clarified things for him in a way that no other training/proofing had. Had I been firmly against the use of that tool, he would reqire much more management, and have a less full life. But just because it worked well for him, I donít assume EVERY dog will respond the way he did. I donít use it much for my girl, who is very appropriate and biddable. When she was still doing IPO, I did use the ecollar to fine tune some things, but for day to day training, it just wouldnít benefit her. Different dogs. Different temperaments. Different responses to tools. My puppy is only 6 months old, I donít yet know which tools I will use for him. Right now, itís a martingale collar. Who knows what the future will bring.

All that said, I believe the judgement that comes with using certain tools to be a little tiresome. Of course there is a wrong way to use them. But there is also a wrong way to use a flat collar. And just because you (general you) havenít found use for them in the type of training you are doing with one dog, does not mean that there is no place for those tools, period. It also doesnít mean that you could absolutely, hands down, train MY dog (or any other dog) with your methods. If you can train your dog to walk nicely in public on a flat collar, thatís wonderful for you. If you can get through rally class with a martigale, thatís wonderful, too. But just because you can do those things does not mean you are a better trainer than someone who chooses different methods. It just means that the methods you prefer happen to work for your dog, in your situation.

Thank you!
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post #85 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 03:13 PM
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I never said, nor do I believe, that I'm a "better" trainer than anyone just because I don't use those tools. But your statement below is a great example of what I did just say:

Quote:
My male, who doesnít have the most appropriate temperament, has benefited greatly from the use of an ecollar. It clarified things for him in a way that no other training/proofing had. Had I been firmly against the use of that tool, he would reqire much more management, and have a less full life.
E-collar vs less full life. That reads alot to me like you're saying "no other method would have worked", and on that point I disagree. I don't disagree with you saying the ecollar worked, it can be an effective training tool. But it isn't the only way IMHO.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. Mark Twain

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post #86 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GypsyGhost View Post

I firmly believe that you need to adjust your training to each dog. That includes which tools you use.
Seems pretty reasonable, I think I see people post the first sentence in different ways all the time. Then comes the second part. NOT A PRONG!!!! AHHHH!!!, LOl.

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post #87 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
I never said, nor do I believe, that I'm a "better" trainer than anyone just because I don't use those tools. But your statement below is a great example of what I did just say:



E-collar vs less full life. That reads alot to me like you're saying "no other method would have worked", and on that point I disagree. I don't disagree with you saying the ecollar worked, it can be an effective training tool. But it isn't the only way IMHO.
That's not what she's saying.
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post #88 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
I never said, nor do I believe, that I'm a "better" trainer than anyone just because I don't use those tools. But your statement below is a great example of what I did just say:



E-collar vs less full life. That reads alot to me like you're saying "no other method would have worked", and on that point I disagree. I don't disagree with you saying the ecollar worked, it can be an effective training tool. But it isn't the only way IMHO.
And I never said you said you were better.

Want to come meet my male and show me how you could handle him differently? You’re welcome to. Of course other methods could work, but for him, none would work AS WELL. I didn’t know that saying one tool gave one dog a better life meant that I thought it was the ONLY way to train dogs. And here I thought I had made a point of saying the best tool for the dog in front of you was the tool that worked best for that dog.

Train the dog in front of you.
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post #89 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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I once met an off leash Bloodhound (with owner!) on the beach. I had to ask him how he accomplished that recall. E-collar. At that time I was very much against anything that wasn't 'positive only'. But I thought about it after he told me that that collar bought that dog her freedom to run and have fun on the beach. It changed my way of thinking about it then.
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post #90 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-18-2018, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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Honestly I don't even want to know...
Clicker and treats Gandalf! You thought that I used a mini E-collar or mini-prong?
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