My experiment; early prong use - Page 11 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #101 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by GypsyGhost View Post
Iíd like there to be a record of sane people who donít vilify the proper use of tools in these threads in case someone with an open mind comes along some day. If no one speaks up about their success with the proper use of these collars, people start doing things like banning collars. I certainly donít think Iím going to change any minds here.
I get that and respect that but I think you would accomplish that by stating your experience instead of getting lost in the back and forth with others.

Listen, you and I have been fortunate to experience some of the top trainers in the country. Trainers who read and understand the latest research on how dogs learn. Trainers that already knew and understood how dogs learn before the research confirmed it.

They know how to use these collars. They know how to motivate and build strong relationships with their dogs. Our dogs would NEVER perform at the level they do if we were pounding on them. The training of old when only the hardest dogs could compete because only they could take the yank and crank methods are over. We know this.

We also know that in countries where these tools are not allowed, the trainers are physically going at these dogs and beating them. The top competitors are going behind tall fences and using these collars. This has all been witnesses and videotaped.

If we are going to beat the AR people, we need to stick to facts and humane training methods, not defense of our methods with keyboard warriors.
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post #102 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 10:45 AM
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And as my final post on this thread, the most brutal punishments I've seen in training were not done with a collar....it was done with the hands of the trainer in a violent, personal, attack on the dog.
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post #103 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Femfa View Post
...
I also think Wolfydog took the right steps for her dog. She isnít going to destroy the confidence in the dog sheís been working so hard with. She saw a training opportunity and it worked well for her. I think sharing things like that is important, because regardless of people agreeing on how they would do it, it allows others to think more openly about how to approach training. Most training is reactive rather than proactive, and thatís important to reflect on.
I really enjoyed your entire post, @Femfa, but the above excerpt is absolutely key --- particularly the portion that I bolded.

Thank you again, @Wolfydog, for starting such an interesting thread. Thanks too to the members whose thoughtful posts made this such an enjoyable discussion to read.

Aly
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post #104 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 10:46 AM
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Just for the sake of further discussion, ever wonder how people trained tough dogs for competition before e-collars were available? Was it all done yank-and-crank, or via compulsion of some kind?

E-collars have been around for awhile. They have evolved a lot compared to the original product. Pinch collars have been around a very long time. Choke collars, throw chains, leather leashes, hands, feet, food and toys have been around a lot longer. All are tools for training, not to replace training. Sometimes I think people do jump to using a specific tool thinking that it will be an instant fix instead of a way to help their training, but that doesn't make the tool the problem.



Training methods vary as much as the humans and dogs involved. I have been training working dogs for 35 years. IMO training has evolved tremendously over the years and most is because of the tools now available. Unfortunately there are a lot of sanctimonious people out there that would happily force their narrowly defined ideas on training on all trainers and all dogs.
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post #105 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 10:48 AM
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And as my final post on this thread, the most brutal punishments I've seen in training were not done with a collar....it was done with the hands of the trainer in a violent, personal, attack on the dog.

YES.

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post #106 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 10:52 AM
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Training has evolved, sanctimony hasn't. In the early 90's there was still debate about whether or not you could train using food. The first ecollar I saw had three settings and you had to change the contacts to change those. Basically, high, higher, and highest.

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post #107 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 10:58 AM
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Training has evolved, sanctimony hasn't. In the early 90's there was still debate about whether or not you could train using food. The first ecollar I saw had three settings and you had to change the contacts to change those. Basically, high, higher, and highest.

Using food and toys was pretty new in the AKC world in the early to mid 80's. Training was still mostly choke collars, some pinch collars (if needed) and praise. The club I belonged to at the time had people who went PP (though I have never considered building drive through deprivation to be P) and wanted to ban new members who used any physical corrections because they believe their methods were far better. Luckily the club balanced out over time. I have also watched the SchH/IPO world evolve over time.
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post #108 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 11:12 AM
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I have also watched the SchH/IPO world evolve over time.
Its always interesting to just look at some different things and see how people who've been involved for a long time start to use different techniques they never would have in the past.
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post #109 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 11:24 AM
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Those that are consistently at the top are there because they know how to fit their training to the dog in front of them.
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post #110 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 11:26 AM
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I read an old bird dog training book at the library once, and they had a few suggestions for dogs that hunted "varmin" (deer or unwanted game).

First, follow the dog while chasing until you can cut him off somewhere. Grab the dog, and give him a beating he won't forget. Along those same lines was the suggestion to pepper the chasing dog with bird shot.

Or, kill/cull that dog.

So, e-collar can fix varmint hunting in a few minutes. Isn't that more humane?

Same goes for IPO and protection sports. Tools, used correctly, make the training more humane, not less. They also allow a wider range of dogs to participate or compete. Along with a greater variety of handlers- many of whom vastly prefer more motivational, clear methods of training.

Anyone who tells you training was more humane prior to the e-collar or prong, they really don't know what they are talking about. Of course, any tool can be abused, but if you start to dig into dog sports and activities, you'll find the methods have become more humane and motivational, not less.
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