E-Collar Training - To Continue or Not? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 17Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Lorax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 15
E-Collar Training - To Continue or Not?

Background
We have a 8.5-month old GSD pup. He has been to puppy socialization, basic obedience, reactive rover classes as well as private training with a few different trainers, and a 7-day board and train while we were on vacation when he was about 4 or 5 months. These have all been "all positive" training. Two of the trainers have told us we might need to see a vet about putting him on meds for impulse control. Those trainers classified him as hyper, impulsive, reactive, hyper vigilant. We don't want to put him on meds. We also feel there are "holes" in the positive only training, such as not jumping on the counters, not jumping on people, snatching our clothes or things in our hands to try to play tug. So we signed up with Off Leash K9 for the basic obedience package.

E-Collar Training
The skills in this program are all things he has learned already. We took him to the first lesson, which was introduction to the e-collar, Come and Sit. At first there were problems getting good connectivity on the collar because of his ultra thick fur. (I should also mention this is the first time he has worn a collar - we always have used a harness instead.) Once it was on, the trainer started trying to use it, alternating between Come and Sit. He was doing Come fine, but on Sit, he just stood there and wouldn't sit at all. The trainer kept increasing the stim but no response. She was pushing his bottom to the ground to physically get him to sit (which he still wouldn't do). She said he was being stubborn, but it seemed like he didn't get what he was supposed to do. Also during the lesson he was walking around jumping on the counter, jumping on us, jumping on a table, etc. Once she used the remote on a higher level when he jumped, and he yelped. She said it was on a lower setting than she had used on our hands, so I'm not sure if he was really being hurt or what. He is also very vocal, and whines and yelps if you step on his paw or something.

Anyway, after almost 2 hours, they were getting nowhere and she said usually by the end of the 1.5 hour lesson, she has turned the controls over to the owners to start practicing. She offered to re-do the first lesson with us, but we have mixed feelings. #1 this is the first training we have done that is anything other than all positive so we are ultra sensitive to hurting him. #2 it seemed like he wasn't getting it so will this even be effective for him? On the other hand, he won't do his commands if there are any kind of distractions or when it seems like he just wants to go do something else, so we're not sure what to do. And as far as his unwanted behaviors, No means nothing to him.

What do you guys think? Should we go back from Lesson No. 1 again, or try something else?
Lorax is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 04:41 PM
Crowned Member
 
Thecowboysgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,796
Nothing about this sounds too great to me.

My vote is no, do not do more e collar training with this trainer.

I think you might be better served going to a decent balanced trainer who could teach you how to use a regular leash and a collar to follow through with your adolescent dog and give him some boundaries. Maybe if you post your general location someone here could recommend someone to you?
Muskeg and voodoolamb like this.
Thecowboysgirl is offline  
post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 04:51 PM
Knighted Member
 
tim_s_adams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,337
Am I reading this right? You have an 8 1/2 month old puppy who doesn't know 'sit or 'no? Or did you mean that he doesn't perform whenever there is any kind of distractions?

In either case, I'm with @Thecowboysgirl on not going back to work with this particular trainer. It sounds to me like your boy needs more one-on-one work with a GSD experienced, balanced trainer first.
voodoolamb likes this.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. Mark Twain

Tim
tim_s_adams is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Lorax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
Am I reading this right? You have an 8 1/2 month old puppy who doesn't know 'sit or 'no? Or did you mean that he doesn't perform whenever there is any kind of distractions?

In either case, I'm with @Thecowboysgirl on not going back to work with this particular trainer. It sounds to me like your boy needs more one-on-one work with a GSD experienced, balanced trainer first.
No, He knows Sit, Down, Stay, Come, etc. etc. etc. All I meant was saying No or Off doesn't get him to stop jumping.
Lorax is offline  
post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Lorax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecowboysgirl View Post
Nothing about this sounds too great to me.

My vote is no, do not do more e collar training with this trainer.

I think you might be better served going to a decent balanced trainer who could teach you how to use a regular leash and a collar to follow through with your adolescent dog and give him some boundaries. Maybe if you post your general location someone here could recommend someone to you?
We are in Portland, Oregon. Open to suggestions. Does it sound like he is being hurt, or they are doing it wrong?
Lorax is offline  
post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 05:50 PM
Elite Member
 
GandalfTheShepherd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,424
I have never seen a legitimate trainer ever do this "She was pushing his bottom to the ground to physically get him to sit (which he still wouldn't do)." OW? I would stop seeing this trainer for that reason alone...
selzer likes this.
GandalfTheShepherd is offline  
post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 06:06 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorax View Post
No, He knows Sit, Down, Stay, Come, etc. etc. etc. All I meant was saying No or Off doesn't get him to stop jumping.
Short answer is put the e away for a while and use a leash. Electric can be confusing like you're seeing, a leash and collar are like a simple connection to you and what you're correcting him for. Off, pop. Then give him a chance to do what you want and praise/reward.

Doc

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve Strom is offline  
post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 07:18 PM
Master Member
 
Pytheis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 915
My question to all you knowledgeable people is what kind of training Off Leash K9 uses. I know they use the e-collar, but is it compulsion training? Or are they using it just to correct the dog that doesn't perform a command it knows to do? Are these the same things?

I have done quite a bit of research on Off Leash K9, as they have a location really close to me, but I've never been sure about them. They train your dog for you (if you do the board and train), but if you were absolutely committed to sticking with the training so the dog didn't go back to the same behaviors, would they be a good place to go? Or is this the kind of training that can mentally change a dog like I've heard you can do with e-collars if you aren't careful?

Sorry to steal the thread, but I think that it applies here and means that I don't have to start my own thread.

Forrest - GSD 9/1/2016 - 5/14/2017 RIP
Brooklyn - Golden retriever 1/30/11
Pytheis is offline  
post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 07:37 PM
Master Member
 
thegooseman90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 774
Welcome to having an excitable pup. I have one too. I think you don't know how to handle him, and that's probably your trainers fault. At this point I can't even recommend the proper training tool because you don't know how to use it. It's not an e collar either.

I don't like a flat leash to correct jumping. A good quality prong will do the trick. But you need to find a trainer who can teach you how to fit it and how to use it so you don't hurt your dog.

A prong collar, choke chain, heck even kicking the dog - is natural to him. It's physical stimuli. Electric is not natural. It's a very unusual sensation to a dog and he'll go to great lengths to avoid it when he can. But you can also mess up a good dog because you have no clue what you're doing. When your dog is up to off leash obedience and he KNOWS what's expected of him then you can switch to an e collar.
thegooseman90 is offline  
post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 07:42 PM
Crowned Member
 
Thecowboysgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pytheis View Post
My question to all you knowledgeable people is what kind of training Off Leash K9 uses. I know they use the e-collar, but is it compulsion training? Or are they using it just to correct the dog that doesn't perform a command it knows to do? Are these the same things?

I have done quite a bit of research on Off Leash K9, as they have a location really close to me, but I've never been sure about them. They train your dog for you (if you do the board and train), but if you were absolutely committed to sticking with the training so the dog didn't go back to the same behaviors, would they be a good place to go? Or is this the kind of training that can mentally change a dog like I've heard you can do with e-collars if you aren't careful?

Sorry to steal the thread, but I think that it applies here and means that I don't have to start my own thread.
As far as I am concerned all E Collar training is basically compulsion training. Either negative reinforcement or positive punishment. Work to relieve themselves of the unpleasant sensation or work to avoid it.

So I suppose this is a franchise? I have no personal experience with the franchise.

I'd think long and hard and do exhaustive research before I left a dog at an e collar board and train.

Honestly it scares me how willing people are to leave their dogs at board and trains anyway.

I like E Collars for certain things, particularly fixing recalls on dogs who are offleash a lot. Can be good for proofing a place command off leash. I'm not sure how i feel about using E Collars for everything right out of the gate. For me personally there are rare extenuating circumstances when that is the right thing to do. I guess I think that there are trainers who are really good at what they do and they can use an E Collar for everything and produce a stable, reliable dog. But there are also trainers who are going to shut the dog down and give you back a traumatized little robot. Can the average pet owner tell who is who when they drop their dog off?

I guess my preference is a trainer who uses E Collars when it's the best tool, but doesn't just do everything with an e collar just because from day 1. But that goes along with my personal philosophy which is that I want to do everything I can with reward and positive motivation and as little as I can with compulsion. So for my dogs, doing everything with an e collar doesn't even make any sense. Also, I can't think of why I would NEED an e collar to teach a dog to sit. So.....that's the best answer I can give to that question.
Thecowboysgirl is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in













Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome