How are these corrections using a head halter less aversive than a prong collar - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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How are these corrections using a head halter less aversive than a prong collar

The late Sophia Yin in this video is using leash pressure and what I see as corrections via a head halter to control a reactive dog. I know that she was always opposed to prong collars, but it is my understanding that the muzzle is much more pain sensitive than the neck and she seems to be yanking up repeatedly.

She also calls this R-. I watched the video several times, and I do see a bit of negative reinforcement when she releases pressure when the dog looks up, but to me, many of the yanks seem to be P+ i.e. a classic correction.

I just see so many contradictions in "force-free trainers" as they say one thing, but do another for the sake of marketing purposes.

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this:

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Old 09-13-2017, 08:25 PM
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A head halter and a "Bag O Treats!" I would ... "NEVER" use that crap on one of my dogs or dogs under my care. That looks
like a serious "Neck Injury" waiting to happen ... if used on the wrong dog! I just say no to "Petsmart Solutions" for badly behaved dogs ... unless they sell the "Pet Convincer" there also.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:39 PM
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I haven't used a head halter and I never plan to (of course, never say never...I thought that about the prong too). All tools attached to a leash use aversion in some form or fashion. If the dog doesn't go where you want him to go, it gets uncomfortable. basic.

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Old 09-13-2017, 08:59 PM
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I'd rather go back to a choker before ever, ever using a head halter or a feel-good-harness
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:09 PM
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I liked the head halter personally. Worked well for me, but I also didn't ever yank on it. I kept the leash loose and if the dog was pulling away it would pull on itself, but I never directly put pressure on it.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:38 PM
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Not my preferred way to get things done but I don't have a problem with what I saw there or the tools used.

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Old 09-13-2017, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazel View Post
I liked the head halter personally. Worked well for me, but I also didn't ever yank on it. I kept the leash loose and if the dog was pulling away it would pull on itself, but I never directly put pressure on it.
Yep ... "On Paper" that is how it's suppose to work.

"Tools" of that sort "are suppose to "Self Correct The Dog." So in theory one would not be "yanking on the dog's neck." Sounds good on paper but best used with ... the right dog??? But ... in the real world, with the wrong dog and the wrong owner ... it works more like this. :


I will say, I am impressed that Sean kept that, uh ... thing on the dogs head! And it was not really much of a factor, course he used a "PC" for corrections and the head thing did not really play much of a role, in what he did.

I flatter myself, but I think I could have done the same thing "without the PC???" Of course ... I'd have taken the Head Halter thing, off the heads, wadded it into a ball and fashioned a makeshift SLL out of the other end! Not sure if that would count thou???
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:45 PM
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That dogs initial reaction was pretty mild. My wife tried using a head halter on Zoey years ago and her reaction was severe. I'm sure they work well for some dogs, just not mine.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baillif View Post
Not my preferred way to get things done but I don't have a problem with what I saw there or the tools used.
My issue is not that she is using a head halter with R- or P+, but the fact that she and other force-free trainers encourage using head halters over prong collars when head halters are just as aversive and maybe even more aversive than a prong. This is just hypocrisy.

Now to be fair to Sophia Yin, she did not oppose prongs and ecollars as a last resort. But the misinformation that is being propagated by force-free trainers is truly ridiculous. And then you have force-free trainers that are even more extreme than her that believe under no circumstances should you use an aversive. The closest thing to an aversive for them is negative punishment i.e. withholding a reward or a time-out.
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Last edited by Wolfhund; 09-13-2017 at 10:02 PM. Reason: syntax
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:17 PM
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Not my preferred way to get things done but I don't have a problem with what I saw there or the tools used.
Aww at times ... your just too neutral, I like it ... but not something I struggle with.
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