Is IPO and UD (CKC obedience) training too conflicting for a young dog? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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Is IPO and UD (CKC obedience) training too conflicting for a young dog?

I'm in the process of finding and bringing home a pup that will suit my desires to title in IPO I and UD, but the more I read into the training the more I put myself in a tizzy. UD is a bit more "relaxed" in that you're allowed to use body gestures to reinforce certain commands, but in the obedience of IPO you are faulted for it.

Has anyone managed to title in both without damaging the training of the other discipline? I don't want to confuse my dog with learning both English and German commands as a young pup, but the goal is to begin evaluating/training in IPO around 4-5 months and then begin the CKC obedience at 6 months. I absolutely adore how obedience creates a strong working relationship between owner and dog, so the more I can work with my dog the happier I'll be. I'm hoping to do some agility just for fun on the side when the pup is older, too, just to keep things fun and to give some enjoyable mental and physical exercise.

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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 04:31 PM
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Just because a venue allows you to give extra signals doesn't mean you have to. Like, you can talk in rally but not in OB, so if you plan to go on to traditional obedience you can never talk in rally or phase it out to the point you are ready to do regular OB. you can talk in rally but you don't have to.

Sometimes you can go one way and not the other. Like, I am always told if you want to do AKC Tracking and schutzhund tracking, train schutzhund first. Because schutzhund is a different style of tracking and while you could pass AKC tracking with a schutzhund dog in wouldn't go the other way---or I don't know what the disqualifications are in schutzhund it might just be a crappy score, because AKC is pass or fail and they don't fail for air scenting for instance.

So if you train for the more strict venue, you should be able to compete in any of the venues you want.
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 04:52 PM
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I've always heard to train for Schutzhund first since it is more demanding. I did do an AKC obedience class as a dog to dog socializing class for my big boy. He was about 18 months at the time. He did well but at the graduation "trial" he lost points because I messed up between the two disciplines. For instance, returning to the dog from a stay, in AKC I was supposed to go around the dog's back to the start position. Not so in IPO / Schutzhund. Ooops, I defaulted to my IPO training.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
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I was hoping you would chime in! That's good to know. I definitely want to start with the SCHH/IPO side of things because it would be my main focus. But overall I do love obedience myself, so the more I can do it the better as long as it isn't at the expense of my dog become confused and damaging their previous training.

I just worry about the language difference. The plan is to start out with English so that the average person could make a behavioural request (in-laws, for example), whereas myself or my partner would probably reinforce more German - possibly switching back and forth to test comprehension. I'm just not sure when it's best to introduce the IPO commands, though I'm sure the local club would help with that.

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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 06:56 PM
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Hakki started his training in German and then switched over to English when he was 1-1/2 years old. I use both languages on a regular basis.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 07:05 PM
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There is no reason why you can not cross train. Sound training on a sound dog with the right temperament and drives will be able to do both without conflict. You will need to make some slight changes in each venue, but nothing major that will cause issues with your dog.
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 07:38 PM
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"UD is a bit more "relaxed" in that you're allowed to use body gestures to reinforce certain commands"

oh no it's not - and there are no extra commands or body gestures allowed -- you can use them but you will be docked or fail

there is more pressure in the CD to UD plus circuit . Everytime I watch a trial it looks like those dogs are going to the chopping block . They look so lifeless and draggy .

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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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Really? I thought with the "Wait" command they were still allowed to use their hand in front of the face without deduction. That's at least what it looked like to me from what I've seen people train here in town and what I've seen online. That's really interesting to know then and I'll keep it in mind.

Definitely don't want my dog to ever look lifeless and draggy during any training though. Why do you think they get that way in comparison to IPO?

And I'm glad to hear from you, Lisa, that cross training is possible with a sound dog. Coming into a working line pup, I'm trying not to set myself up for miserable failure the first time around. Would you recommend sticking with just one language, and once the behaviour has a good foundation to start using the other? For example, having them reliably sit without a lure, but then essentially re-teach with the additions language by reintroducing the lure? Or simply place the new language ahead of the previously used one almost like a secondary marker?

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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 08:59 PM
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If you train your dog for IPO and you can do the BH then you will have no problem doing CKC. Many people who train in IPO also title in AKC/CKC
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 01:19 AM
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I thought with the "Wait" command they were still allowed to use their hand in front of the face without deduction

CKC OBEDIENCE TRIAL Rules and Regulations, UTILITY CLASS

signal OR command
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