E collars for training and corrections? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 11:58 PM Thread Starter
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E collars for training and corrections?

Hello everyone!

So I'm just curious what are your thoughts on e collars? I have a 6 month old pup and he's been awesome as I've been training him but now it seems the chock collar I use doesn't work.

I correct him with a pull or a few when needed but it seems he doesn't listen anymore with it.

I'm training him to heel and he was doing okay but now he doesn't do it and when I correct him, he won't do it. Also it seems he doesn't focus on me anymore neither. When we're training he would get distracted and look at anything else but me.

I'm thinking of using an e collar with a vibrate option to get his attention as well as better corrections. I don't plan on using the shock unless my trainer advises it. He did advise the collar with vibration.

Another example is the down command. He was so good with it but now when I do it with him, he doesn't like do it and when I do a few pulls, he just looks at me and doesn't do it.

Would this be a good option? I want to use it for off leash training, come command, and future bite work as well.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Edit *choke collar. Sorry posting from my phone!
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 01:10 AM
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These days not many use a "Choke Collar" anymore?? Now a days, it's a "Prong Collar" a "Martingale (which is not really a training collar ... but people, think they are and get results so whatever) a "Regular Collar and a Flat leash" or yes an "E-Collar." And of course my tool of choice is a Slip Lead Leash ... but I doubt you'll find any trainers near you that use/train that??

And I doubt that a competent trainer would suggest the use of an "E-Collar" on the "Vibration setting???" If your dog were "deaf" perhaps??? But if such is not the case ... then they should have said "something" about finding the "Working Level" for your dog with the use of an "E-Collar."

The fact that your dog does not like "Down" is not really a surprise? Dogs don't tend to like "down" I used "down" as a "hammer" for my "Boxer." "Down" meant "stop the crap, play time is over." Her flews would flap in protest ... but down she would go.

If you want to better understand how to use an E-Collar see here:
How To...

As for my efforts to help see here ... it started as a "SLL" thread but ... most people we're getting it ( I have heard and helped a few ... but not a lot ... good enough for me) so I changed in the middle and suggested people use a real tool. In anycase see here.
Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And most likely the "problem is your "corrections are no longer effective?" Not unusual but there is a solution ... just use a "PC" instead of the "tug" hmmm and that tug needs to be sideways ... not straight back ... for the record.

But the "PC" see here. :
Pet Convincer.com

And the "PC" is simply a "Bicycle Air Pump" it's about half that cost at your local "Bicycle Shop." in anycase you've already take the first step in getting a grip on this ie ... "if what I am doing is not working ... stop, think and do something different??"

Welcome aboard and ask questions.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 02:04 AM
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@Richmond Custodio

I do not think that corrections are your problem, but proper motivation is your issue. An E collar will not "fix" your dog or make your training any better. It will also not get better attention from your dog.

You may be simply overdoing it and your dog is bored and lacks interest. Or, you are adding in too many corrections and being to demanding, expecting too much and your dog is avoiding you.

I would take a step back and try to find a way to make training and learning really fun for your puppy. After all, your dog is still a puppy. I would also avoid websites dedicated to E collar use and advice that recommend "stimming" your dog to perform an action or behavior. It's not how real training is done.

You will get better benefits with the proper motivation and praise than relying on compulsion or corrections. Take a step back in your training, examine your relationship with your dog and figure out what makes your dog happy and motivates him. Corrections are for disobedience when a dog understands what is expected. Corrections and compulsion have very little use in training puppies.

Far too many people look for ways to correct, force or punish a dog when the problem is really how the owner is training the dog. If you can motivate a dog to want to do a behavior it will become more reliable and consistent. It sounds like your dog no longer enjoys training with you, that is the big issue, IMHO. Go back and make it fun for the dog and avoid resorting to more compulsion. You should be what's interesting and what he dog wants to focus on.

I'm willing to bet that your training sessions are too long and lack the proper amount of praise and reward. Keep training sessions short with a puppy, just a few minutes. Puppies have short attention spans, work a few minutes and end it on a high note. You can have another session in a little while, but a puppy needs breaks. If you keep it short, happy and fun your dog will want to work more for the next session.

“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance”. George Bernard Shaw

Jim

Last edited by Slamdunc; 02-13-2017 at 02:08 AM.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 03:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip18 View Post
These days not many use a "Choke Collar" anymore?? Now a days, it's a "Prong Collar" a "Martingale (which is not really a training collar ... but people, think they are and get results so whatever) a "Regular Collar and a Flat leash" or yes an "E-Collar." And of course my tool of choice is a Slip Lead Leash ... but I doubt you'll find any trainers near you that use/train that??

And I doubt that a competent trainer would suggest the use of an "E-Collar" on the "Vibration setting???" If your dog were "deaf" perhaps??? But if such is not the case ... then they should have said "something" about finding the "Working Level" for your dog with the use of an "E-Collar."

The fact that your dog does not like "Down" is not really a surprise? Dogs don't tend to like "down" I used "down" as a "hammer" for my "Boxer." "Down" meant "stop the crap, play time is over." Her flews would flap in protest ... but down she would go.

If you want to better understand how to use an E-Collar see here:
How To...

As for my efforts to help see here ... it started as a "SLL" thread but ... most people we're getting it ( I have heard and helped a few ... but not a lot ... good enough for me) so I changed in the middle and suggested people use a real tool. In anycase see here.
Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And most likely the "problem is your "corrections are no longer effective?" Not unusual but there is a solution ... just use a "PC" instead of the "tug" hmmm and that tug needs to be sideways ... not straight back ... for the record.

But the "PC" see here. :
Pet Convincer.com

And the "PC" is simply a "Bicycle Air Pump" it's about half that cost at your local "Bicycle Shop." in anycase you've already take the first step in getting a grip on this ie ... "if what I am doing is not working ... stop, think and do something different??"

Welcome aboard and ask questions.
Thank you so much for info!! I owned another german shepherd but I got him at 1.5 years old so I never really dealt with puppies and training them.

I believe the collar I'm using is called a choke collar. I tried to find a picture but couldn't really find it so I'm probably naming it wrong. It's like a chain collar that's linked together and when I pull, it will pinche. Actually it is like a prong collar without the spikes.

Yeah I've been working on the sideways pull with him and definitely has not been helping. I believe you're right, Kaiser doesn't find much enjoyment in training anymore. He loves the agility courses we do but obedience, he is not a fan of.

My trainer recommended an e collar as well for some other problems I was having such as digging when I'm not around as well as barking in the middle of night. He showed me how to use it on an e collar he has but still wants to show me once I get mine once again. He was telling me to put it on him around 2am when I get home cause he'll start barking around that time especially since then neighbors are always outside around 3am doing who knows what. I know it's not advised to leave it for awhile or when I'm not watching him though? Not sure.

Anyways, do you have any tips how I could make training much more enjoyable? I've given him a ton of praise as we're training but it seems he's getting bored of that now? Oddly enough, he doesn't like treats as I've tried a ton of treats (even peanut butter) and he doesn't like raw foods neither such as chicken. I see his tail is wagging everywhere while we're training but still don't see him as happy anymore. I've lowered the amount of training time we do as well. He loves to play with his toys but only when I'm not around. I'm not sure how else I should award if he doesn't like a lot of things lol

I noticed this all started happening when I started socializing him with other pups as well? I've been getting him use to my girlfriends shih tzu and they love to play. We have this big agility course they love to play at and we'll just let them go those two while we watch. Not sure if this was the wrong move but I don't see why not?

What can I change up?? I don't want to say we have the perfect relationship and he's the happiest dog but I can see we have a pretty good relationship as he'll start freaking out when I walk away or I'll leave him with my parents in the backyard. He won't get aggressive but he looks worried when I leave like I won't come back?

Again thank you so much for the info and help!!! My last german shepherd was extremely easy for me to train as he picked up a lot really easy. Should I maybe just wait for him to grow up and to start training? I prefer not too as I want to start his training young.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 03:08 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
@Richmond Custodio

I do not think that corrections are your problem, but proper motivation is your issue. An E collar will not "fix" your dog or make your training any better. It will also not get better attention from your dog.

You may be simply overdoing it and your dog is bored and lacks interest. Or, you are adding in too many corrections and being to demanding, expecting too much and your dog is avoiding you.

I would take a step back and try to find a way to make training and learning really fun for your puppy. After all, your dog is still a puppy. I would also avoid websites dedicated to E collar use and advice that recommend "stimming" your dog to perform an action or behavior. It's not how real training is done.

You will get better benefits with the proper motivation and praise than relying on compulsion or corrections. Take a step back in your training, examine your relationship with your dog and figure out what makes your dog happy and motivates him. Corrections are for disobedience when a dog understands what is expected. Corrections and compulsion have very little use in training puppies.

Far too many people look for ways to correct, force or punish a dog when the problem is really how the owner is training the dog. If you can motivate a dog to want to do a behavior it will become more reliable and consistent. It sounds like your dog no longer enjoys training with you, that is the big issue, IMHO. Go back and make it fun for the dog and avoid resorting to more compulsion. You should be what's interesting and what he dog wants to focus on.

I'm willing to bet that your training sessions are too long and lack the proper amount of praise and reward. Keep training sessions short with a puppy, just a few minutes. Puppies have short attention spans, work a few minutes and end it on a high note. You can have another session in a little while, but a puppy needs breaks. If you keep it short, happy and fun your dog will want to work more for the next session.
Thank you so much for the info! If you don't mind me asking, may be a really stupid question, but what I do to give him more motivation as I've been using a lot of praise for him.

My dog is a little picky. I tried using a ton of treats but he doesn't like treats. He will sniff them and not go for it. Also tried raw meat and uncooked hot dogs but he doesn't like it. Tried toys as well and he only likes them when I'm not around. I've used this rag that he loves to chase but only likes to play with it when I'm throwing it around. What other things can I do to boost his motivation or should I just continue with plenty of praise?

Yeah, our training once a week is long and after some recommendations, I've shortened it by giving him a lot of breaks in between and letting him have the choice of when to go back. It's about 2 hours long but what I've been doing is giving him breaks when I see he isn't happy, we'll go on the agility as he loves that or just sit and watch and I'll take him back when he gets up and wants to go. During the week days I will usually do 2-5 mins of training then an hour or so of playing. Should I just take a break from training in general?

Thanks again for the info and help!! Willing to do anything to help my pup out
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 07:00 AM
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I recommend you go on Leerburg and check out Michael Ellis and Forrest Micke for engagement and using food, they have DVDs and online classes

My dog's enthusiasm for food went way up after changing my techniques according to ME.

Also you can learn how to use toys to motivate your dog although food works better for teaching some things.

You might have to back way up and quit asking anything of the dog and just try to get him to enjoy being around you and playing with you. I wonder if a flirt pole might help to get him into a toy that isn't in your hand and then gradually work the toy closer to yourself until he is willing to play with you.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 07:02 AM
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If it were me I would not train anything for a week or two. Just play play play with your dog. Keep the girlfriends dog away during this time. Does he chase balls, play tug, make a flirt pole, you need to get the dog wanting to engage with you. Take him with you where ever u or can. Right now The dog sees you as an inconvenience. Whatever you have been doing and whatever trainer you are going to I would quit. It isn't working. If you don't want the pup digging don't leave him out by himself. From what I have read my understanding is that maybe the dog lives outside. Is this correct?
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-18-2017, 01:53 PM
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I'll give a yes and no answer. The no part is for the average pet dog owner, I don't recommend they use them, unless its under supervision of a trainer that is experienced in the use of these collars. The yes, if its someone with dog experience in training and handling, I.e.: a pro dog handler or even a dog sports enthusiast or even someone that shows their dog in conformation. Its a huge Yes.


The major misconception even amongst professional dog people, is e-collars are firm correction tools. In fact as an education tool in dog training. Its more like clicker training VS prong or choke collars. In fact if used like a modern tool with old school dog training. You'll likely get very poor results.


To be effective, you have to basically train the dog like its deaf. So someone that has experience with working a dog and training a dog for venues/events. Will get super dog results. Someone inexperienced in training and working their dogs "handling" will get poor results by themselves. You need to know how to read dogs behaviors and know how proper corrections work and are applied.


I love e-collars. My dog is on one right now! If I took his collar off and put it in your hand. And sent a correction while you held it. You would not feel it! See the misconception is the correction is discomfort. No! Again if you held my dogs collar firmly in your hand and I sent a correction to the collar. You would not feel the impulse. My collar can be set for electric impulses from 0 to 100. For small dogs the manufacture recommends a setting between 5 and 10. Mine is set around 20. And even in the palm of a human hand, one of the most sensitive areas on a humans body. You couldn't feel it if I "shocked" you while holding the collar.


The main reasons dog trainers in general don't use them. Is most people can't afford one on one training. Most pet obedience is done in groups.


If you apply normal pet handling with my dog. You'll probably get bit!
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 08:09 AM
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thank you for sharing that!
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