Ecollar or clicker tricks - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 52Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Konathedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 73
Ecollar or clicker tricks

For those who trained the fundamentals (sit heel down and place) with ecollar, do you switch over to the clicker for tricks?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Kona |Long Hair GSD | 55 lbs | 3 years old |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Konathedog is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 05:49 PM
Moderator
 
Slamdunc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,630
I just can't comprehend training the sit, heel, down and place with an E collar? I've trained more than a few dogs to do a lot of stuff and have never used an E collar to train a behavior. I do use an E collar, just not for teaching a behavior. I have seen people do it, know some trainers that do it, but I just don't see a need or advantage to it. I prefer to teach with out compulsion and punishment. I train motivationally, teach motivationally and then proof the behaviors.

I do not believe in correcting a dog for a behavior that it is not trained to do or fully understands.

I also do not understand why you would train "tricks" with a clicker and positive reinforcement, but train the sit with punitive techniques?

I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative, I really don't get it. Also, I use an E collar and I am certainly not against E collar use. I just use it in a very different way and with a different expectation of performance.

“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance”. George Bernard Shaw

Jim
Slamdunc is offline  
post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 05:53 PM
Crowned Member
 
LuvShepherds's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,192
I taught sit and down with treats, nothing else. I stopped using treats after mine learned simple rote behaviors. I teach chains of behaviors with other tools. I know people here use clickers but I prefer to have my hands free.

The reason I used treats is that I started training at 8 weeks and had no other tools I would use on a tiny puppy. How old is your dog?
LuvShepherds is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 06:02 PM
Moderator
 
David Winners's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 2,514
I use the e-collar to proof behaviors and for reinforcement until the dog is solid. I use vocal markers for most luring type training, like positions, and a clicker to capture behaviors that the dog already does, like shake your head or look up.

When a dog saves the life of a man, it becomes clear that partnership knows no bounds.

Fama - T.E.D.D. OEF XI-XII (GSD)(RET)
Marshall - T.E.D.D. OEF XII-XIII (Lab)(SF EDD)
Lucian - Med Alert / Mobility SD (Cane Corso)
Pud - the old man (Pit x Lab)
David Winners is offline  
post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 06:56 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Konathedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 73
Thanks for the replies. When i use ecollar i seldom use it to correct my dog rather to stimulate the pressure of a leash. For example when youre first doing recall you communciate to the dog by gently pulling on the leash. You also add ecollar stim (at low levels) to communicate the recall. Over time you stop the leash, then work with the ecollar only. This allows you to recall at distance up to 50 ft and more.

Also to put things into perspective, humans feel a microscopic tickle between level 10 to 14. My dog works at level 2.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Kona |Long Hair GSD | 55 lbs | 3 years old |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Konathedog is offline  
post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 06:59 PM
Crowned Member
 
SuperG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Great White North
Posts: 4,477
I'm going with the flow.....the basics and most other obedience skills never required an e-collar......the e-collar made the previously learned skills honed in the manner of consistency, speed and accuracy......only exception was my use of the e-collar regarding her reactivity to other dogs......doggy treats didn't quite offer enough pressure on her...even if I put hot mustard on the treats

SuperG
dogma13 and voodoolamb like this.

Hündin 32CACT, 2334CSAT, 2016 GAA 2.85
SuperG is offline  
post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 07:02 PM
Crowned Member
 
SuperG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Great White North
Posts: 4,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konathedog View Post

Also to put things into perspective, humans feel a microscopic tickle between level 10 to 14. My dog works at level 2.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
You don't have to defend your use of an e-collar in here.....

There are some smart cookies in here that can really help you with the use of an e-collar....I learned much from them.


SuperG

Hündin 32CACT, 2334CSAT, 2016 GAA 2.85
SuperG is offline  
post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 07:05 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Dayton NV
Posts: 7,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
I use the e-collar to proof behaviors and for reinforcement until the dog is solid. I use vocal markers for most luring type training, like positions, and a clicker to capture behaviors that the dog already does, like shake your head or look up.
You use "Clickers???" Please explain, "your" reasoning behind doing so??

"My" reason for not using them/recommending are fairly simple ... first "JQP has to understand "how to use that "tool" properly and then they have to "translate" what they "think they understand to there dog??" Just another layer of potential "confusion" in my view ... this "despite" the fact that one of my "guys" Gary Wilkes (the Bonker guy) is the King of Click and Treat??? Life is full of "irony."
Chip18 is offline  
post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Konathedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperG View Post
You don't have to defend your use of an e-collar in here.....

There are some smart cookies in here that can really help you with the use of an e-collar....I learned much from them.


SuperG
Just wanted clarity. I know a lot people lurking this form and doesnt know the philosophy behind ecollar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperG View Post
I'm going with the flow.....the basics and most other obedience skills never required an e-collar......the e-collar made the previously learned skills honed in the manner of consistency, speed and accuracy......only exception was my use of the e-collar regarding her reactivity to other dogs......doggy treats didn't quite offer enough pressure on her...even if I put hot mustard on the treats

SuperG

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Kona |Long Hair GSD | 55 lbs | 3 years old |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Konathedog is offline  
post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 07:46 PM
Moderator
 
Slamdunc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konathedog View Post
Thanks for the replies. When i use ecollar i seldom use it to correct my dog rather to stimulate the pressure of a leash. For example when youre first doing recall you communciate to the dog by gently pulling on the leash. You also add ecollar stim (at low levels) to communicate the recall. Over time you stop the leash, then work with the ecollar only. This allows you to recall at distance up to 50 ft and more.

Also to put things into perspective, humans feel a microscopic tickle between level 10 to 14. My dog works at level 2.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
This is where I differ with using an E collar to teach behaviors. I understand how low stim works and I understand how to train a recall with a "tug" on the leash. The tug on the leash, while effective is rather antiquated, IMHO. It is part of the KMODT, which while some is still good and applicable, some….well, not so much.

To think that a "stim" from an E collar is not punishment is incorrect. If you use it like some advocates and "teach" the dog to turn the stim off when it recalls it is certainly negative. If the dog enjoyed the stim, well, it simply would not come back at all. It would wander around the yard getting that "gentle neck massage" that some folks claim it to be. If it was pleasant to the dog, the dog wouldn't respond. I hope that makes sense???? Keeping the stim on, even on a low level is discomfort to the dog, we need to be very clear on this. Again, if it was enjoyable the dog would not give you the response. And what happens when the low level stim doesn't work???? Naturally, one would need to raise the stim to a suitable "working level" or a level where the discomfort is enough to cause / force the dog to comply. I am firmly against teaching a dog to operate under these conditions. You have no where to go but up.

I know some folks use E collars in this manner, I feel the need to point out the reality of the training method. I will say an E collar used in this method is better than the "tool of last resort" that many novices think it is.

I use an E collar almost every day on my dogs. It is a tool of finesse, to increase performance, never to train a command. I will say that the 3 dogs I work daily are much, much more than the average GSD. I also expect a performance level that most average folks will not achieve. To achieve a high level of performance, speed and exactness is near impossible, IMO with E Collar stim to teach behaviors.

Often, we are the issue of "well this is ok because my dog is just a pet." I couldn't disagree more with that sentiment. I own pets as well and their training is just as humane, fair and fun as my other dogs.

I'm sorry, but I truly believe the so called "low level stim" to teach behaviors is a flawed E collar philosophy. There is no need to stim a dog to make it sit, just as there is no need to yank up on a leash to make a dog sit. It is old and poor training techniques. Doing both together doesn't make it cutting edge.

I have no issues training dogs to recall at a high speed with no E collar and no leash and no corrections. When training is fun the dog learns faster and the foundation is better. I am running a patrol school now for a green dog and green handler. First week and the dog is focused, happy, in drive, wanting to work and no leash or collar is needed for his recall. It is a totally different training philosophy and methodology. Very easy and very effective.

What many people do not realize are the undesirable effects of using compulsion to train behaviors. Experienced folks will know and recognize it quickly.

“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance”. George Bernard Shaw

Jim
Slamdunc is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome