Not sure about trainers - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 50Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-11-2016, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 29
Not sure about trainers

We have a 6 mos old female pup. We've had her since she was 8 weeks old and I'm completely smitten. She's been such a wonderful addition to the family.

I set out soon after she got home to find training. Here has been our experience followed by my concerns and questions.

First trainer, 6 sessions (3 private and 3 group) at 3.5 mos old

Private sessions
1st session: played to and fro.
Trainor introduced her to prong
Walked the pup with prong trainer showed how he popped the collar
2nd session walked with prong and I showed how she could sit. Trainer taught down.
3rd session: walked pup with prong

Group sessions (with 1 other pup and trainers dog)
1st session: walked dogs 1 mile, came in and placed dogs in down for remainder of session, putting them back in down when they'd rise.
2nd session: walked a mile. My pup was last in 3 dog line and was constantly pulling and whining to meet the other dogs. Trainer abruptly change direction (going complete opposite direction) with prong. He yanked fairly hard and said that my pup had high pain tolerance and when she wouldn't comply he yanked in the opposite direction several more times. It never changed my pups behaviour of pulling toward dogs in front of her.

3rd session: walked a mile pup still pulling and whining to greet other dogs in front. Pup barks through entire indoor session as well which included ling down stays and sit/comes. Trainer said GSDs are vocal some more than others.

Next tried PO trainer (5.5 months)

I let trainer know I didn't think pup cared much for food rewards. Does like certain toys, so she does some sits with toy after trainer agrees food drive isn't strong. Later decides that I should feed meals as rewards.

I was/am about worried about this because pup isn't a strong eater. The vet checked her out and said as long as she was gaining growth and weight on curve then don't worry but if she starts losing we will revisit and add strategies to help her be more motivated.(we add a raw egg once a week, chicken once a day and cheese every other day to keep interest)

Since feeding meals as rewards, I feel like I have to get command across then convince her to eat the reward. More time spent convincing than training
So now she's lost a couple lbs. I mentioned the weight loss to the trainer bit she said she's not worried because pup was finicky to begin with and she won't starve herself. I know she won't starve herself but I feel like nutrients are super important in that critical first year growth.

Also (it's only been two weeks) but pup often ignores me during training. I mentioned this to the trainer and she said it's me that she doesn't think the pup would do that to her. Okay, well I hope not because you're the professional. She wants to take over at a public place and me sit in the car and watch how she does it. How will I hear what she's saying?

I'm so confused and worried my pup is too because at this point I have no confidence in anything I do. We are very rural and there aren't more trainers in our area. There is big city 2.5 hours away but I would be hard pressed to be able to swing that.

I just want my pup to be happy, healthy and confident.

I've taught her a couple of things on my own that I've learned here like sit, watch me, down, stay and come using flirt pole, balls and hide and go seek. Also, we play the touch game I learned here. And she's learned leave it with the kitties but only on leash.

I just don't know how to extend sit/stays, down/stays, and focus nor how to train with any type of distraction past those I create like moving the flirt pole, squeaking a toy etc.

Outside of commands my concerns are:
She pulls toward people, cats and dogs on leash in a hey can I lick you all over kind of way. She mouths my hands all the time when petting (tried YIPES, and ignoring as well as no bite firm) jumps on people when they arrive non aggressive all way to friendly.

Ok sorry to unload but I'm so frustrated and worried that I'm going to mess her up. Are either of these training methods indicative of how the process is? I just don't know. I do know I find myself very frustrated with the PO process. Nut I'm willing to keep trying if it's me screwing up so badly.
Annachi is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 02:40 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Dayton NV
Posts: 7,657
Personally I would think that if you've paid someone and followed there instructions properly?? You should "expect" better results than you've seen?? But whatever you can do better ... you just need to know where to go.

And side note I do belive at six months a one mile walk is way to much for a puppy's growing bones and joints??

A couple points the people coming over thing and the dog acting "nutty??" Train "The Place Command" dog/puppy goes in "Place" and company ignores her your job to see that they do. A lot of the issues you mentioned on training with distractions etc ... "Train Place" you'll use a drag leash to guide the dog from "Place Mat to Place Mat." She will learn to listen and come when recalled as a byproduct.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

And your dog does need to be able to walk on a leash properly before you can start to work on other walk issues. See here:
https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8044913-post7.html

Personally I'm more of a Slip Lead Leash guy myself but apparently no one does that.

When you click on the links ... you'll see I'm really not as "brief" as it would at first appear. So ask questions and welcome aboard.
Chip18 is offline  
post #3 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 09:12 AM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,724
oh my. Sounds like you went from one extreme to the other and neither trainer is balanced.

Can I ask where you live? I'm sure someone can suggest a good trainer close to you?




Jax08 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 29
Oops I noticed a typo in first post. I live about 1.5 hours from ATL. A little longer with traffic. It's just an area/ community outside of Madison.

I'll gladly go back to either trainer (still have lessons scheduled with 2nd one) if either method is the norm for their type of training and I'm just not understanding the process. I mean, is jerking the dog in the complete opposite direction while walking with prong the norm? Should this elicit numerous yelps from pup? I know using meals as rewards instead of bowl feeds is a tool but should it persist if the puppy has lost weight since starting and I have to convince pup to take the reward?

I'm going to look through all the videos in the links posted. Is it unheard of or frowned upon to learn how to operate a prong through videos? I'm sure there are ones that teach how to transition off too, right? I mean when they are trained do you move to a flat collar or is the prong always used when walking?

Any other video series that would be beneficial? Preferably that go from basic to extending basic like extending stays, focus etc.

Sorry if I'm so annoyingly full of questions but I truly truly want to be the best I can be at this for my girl! She makes me so happy and has been such a joy (okay well mostly when I'm not in tears with frustration because I know I'm not getting through but I do realize it's my fault and not hers!)

I'm going to work on Place but here's another question. Is there a place in multiple areas? Do I purchase and place cots in each area? How does place work while in the park or is it not used in that way to calm the dog when people pass?

Last edited by Annachi; 08-12-2016 at 11:50 AM.
Annachi is offline  
post #5 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 12:53 PM
Senior Member
 
Strikker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 346
I'll gladly go back to either trainer (still have lessons scheduled with 2nd one) if either method is the norm for their type of training and I'm just not understanding the process. Very good observation regarding yourself. Understanding the process is in my opinion the most important thing regarding training your puppy. If you do not buy in to the method, success may be difficult to achieve.

I mean, is jerking the dog in the complete opposite direction while walking with prong the norm? It can be to help the dog understand to focus on you and where you are walking. I work correction-reward with my dogs all the time. Again, understanding the process and making sure your puppy knows what you want and why the correction, very important. Rewards for doing in right, the single most important thing.

Should this elicit numerous yelps from pup? Again, it can be, there is a difference between abuse and correction. At your puppy's age, I may be working on small thing for a short time that require correction but have a high success rate so the rewards are frequent. The corrections are to help get to the rewards.

I know using meals as rewards instead of bowl feeds is a tool but should it persist if the puppy has lost weight since starting and I have to convince pup to take the reward? I do not use meals as rewards.

I'm going to look through all the videos in the links posted. Is it unheard of or frowned upon to learn how to operate a prong through videos? I'm sure there are ones that teach how to transition off too, right? I mean when they are trained do you move to a flat collar or is the prong always used when walking? I train all my dogs with prong collars, but work them off leash also. My goal is to not require a leash to control my dogs.

Just a suggestion, you might want to sit down and have a talk with both trainers to let them know your concerns and hesitations regarding their methods. Let them drill down and explain to you what they really are teaching. Do not be afraid to ask questions, (make a list and bring it with you so you do not forget anything). A good trainer will have no issue explaining methods and results with you. The more you buy in, the better the results will be.
LuvShepherds and Annachi like this.

KAVAI VOM HUFEISENBERG
ROCCO HEIDELBERGER-SCHLOSS
BEYA VOM WIEZENLAND
Strikker is offline  
post #6 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 01:32 PM
Crowned Member
 
Thecowboysgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,796
Making a 3 month old yelp with a prong correction, really? No wonder your dog does not want to engage during training. Not your fault, but I sure wouldn't go back to that trainer. I don't think you screwed up but there is absolutely nothing you said about trainer #1 that gives me any confidence. And I don't think it is a stretch to say this is why your pup is ignoring you. At that age, you should be the most fun, most rewarding, and most safe thing in your pup's world and that trainer made you the opposite of that.

How are you trying to convince the pup to take the food..because that may be making it worse. Shoving food at it will make it not want to eat.

Mine was not super into food and doing food chase rewards ala Michael Ellis helped a lot. Also teaching to push into hand while luring (Ellis), got him really turned onto the food.

Trainer #2! Doesn't sound too hot either
islanddog and Annachi like this.
Thecowboysgirl is offline  
post #7 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 01:39 PM
Crowned Member
 
Thecowboysgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,796
If your pup is ignoring you, going to a public place is not going to help. More distractions, work on getting her attention in a calm quiet place. Like your front yard. Then try again by your mailbox. Ect.

I wouldn't be doing anything too much with long stays, I would be working on exciting, fun engagement work. If you want videos look for Michael Ellis or Forrest Micke
Thecowboysgirl is offline  
post #8 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 01:53 PM
Elite Member
 
ausdland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SF Bay
Posts: 1,218
Patience and consistency. It's going to take a long time for your puppy to mature. Mine still does behaviors you described and she's 1. It's gotten a whole lot better. A focused heel helps a lot in keeping the pups attention on you. The duration will be short so time it as you're passing other animals or people she may be drawn to. Teach leave it with a squirt bottle in the house or pinch collar outside. I started with a pinch collar around 4-5 months old and an e collar around 7 months old. Both are good tools if used properly. Of course, positive reinforcement, food and toy rewards are most desirable if they get you the behavior you want. I too fed my pup by hand instead of bowl a lot to try to get her to understand I'm the most important thing in the world to her.
Sounds like you're doing the right things. You have a puppy that's very interested in the world. It'll get better but it'll take time. Just keep trying to redirect her focus on you. It'll happen; she's a gsd.
Annachi likes this.
ausdland is online now  
post #9 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 02:13 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Dayton NV
Posts: 7,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annachi View Post
I'll gladly go back to either trainer (still have lessons scheduled with 2nd one) if either method is the norm for their type of training and I'm just not understanding the process. I mean, is jerking the dog in the complete opposite direction while walking with prong the norm?
Should this elicit numerous yelps from pup?
Well, I'm a SLL guy myself and I've trained dogs to walk properly in a very short period time without illisting a single yelp.

Although in "retro spec" the "Big headed" pitty I worked with for a little bit would have been a good "Prong Collar" candidate?? But ... I digress.

As I understand the "process" ... once the dog is "properly conditioned" to the "Prong Collar." That "yelp" should only need to happen once. If it's happening again and again ... then "something" is "not" right and the dog does not "understand" what is required of him???

The "rapid" change of direction thing has a rather long "Prong Free" history ... but that's another tangent.

An approach you "may' find useful "Prong" or not can be found here:

The exact same thing can be done with any "proper tool" a regular collar and flat leash a Slip Lead Leash and of course a "Prong Collar." The primary advantage of a "Prong Collar" when used properly, is it takes less user "input" to deliver a "Slight Tug Sideways" correction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annachi View Post
I know using meals as rewards instead of bowl feeds is a tool but should it persist if the puppy has lost weight since starting and I have to convince pup to take the reward?
LOL .... yessss .... late to the party. I'll just say for "this" I use neither "treats" or "food" ... and let it go at that.

Two trainers at once?? That strikes me as a bit ... "extreme???" All the trainers I source work with dogs with "serious" freaking issues as well as "normal family pets." And they "All" train the "Place Command." If your talking to them and trying to decide?? I'd ask them if they "Train Place??" If they have no idea what your talking about or explain why they don't "need" to .. I'd say ... you know which one to "eliminate" from "further" consideration. But you know ... that's just "me."
Chip18 is offline  
post #10 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 29
Wow thanks so much for all the advice! You don't know how it has lifted my spirits!

Quote:
Just a suggestion, you might want to sit down and have a talk with both trainers to let them know your concerns and hesitations regarding their methods. Let them drill down and explain to you what they really are teaching. Do not be afraid to ask questions, (make a list and bring it with you so you do not forget anything). A good trainer will have no issue explaining methods and results with you.
This first trainer was a 6 session deal for spring. He won't have another class suited for my pup until winter maybe spring.(Right now he's doing advanced stuff for sports or tracking or something).

I have had this conversation with the 2nd trainer at the first session. But maybe revisiting the issue may be appropriate. Also, I may need to really search myself self to see if I am totally buying in to PO training. I stay so frustrated.

Quote:
How are you trying to convince the pup to take the food..because that may be making it worse. Shoving food at it will make it not want to eat.
We'll that helps because I do try to get her to sniff it! When she was younger I would handheld because she wouldn't be eager (we had scheduled feedings not free feeds) and she would eat from it fine then. I may have to ditch this meals/rewards thing though because the weight loss makes me antsy. It's probs PTSD because I have a chronically I'll kid (grown now) that has been FTT a couple times and ended up on enteral feeds. I've been inundated with growth/nutrition info for a number of years and it's probably bleeding over!

Quote:
Patience and consistency. It's going to take a long time for your puppy to mature. Mine still does behaviors you described and she's 1. It's gotten a whole lot better.
This makes me feel netter. I would like to know where my and her are at on the spectum (I know it can vary greatly) of what she should be able to do and where I could be pushing to hard.

Quote:
Two trainers at once?? That strikes me as a bit ... "extreme???" All the trainers I source work with dogs with "serious" freaking issues as well as "normal family pets." And they "All" train the "Place Command." If your talking to them and trying to decide?? I'd ask them if they "Train Place??" If they have no idea what your talking about or explain why they don't "need" to .. I'd say ... you know which one to "eliminate" from "further" consideration.
No. We first used the 1st trainer at 3.5 months, 6 sessions but he didn't have an open class to further it. So we started with the 2nd trainer 2 weeks ago. So wasn't by choice really.

I'm going to check out the video you guys suggested by Ellis. And The links and video you all posted thanks again! This forum is awesome!
Annachi is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome