Rescuing 9 year abused junkyard vs - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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Rescuing 9 year abused junkyard vs

I am giving this senior dog his last few years happy. He was tied outside for 9 years neglected with horrible deep skin infections. I'll be receiving him soon by transport. I'm told he is aggressive towards cats which I have and they can be kept downstairs. Is there any hope he gets used to cats? And best way to approach this please. I also have a female four year old GS. Thanks for advise

Last edited by carmanj; 08-27-2015 at 07:09 AM.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 12:40 PM
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Thank you SO much for giving this poor old senior a chance to experience love and kindness in this last years. That's a very special thing to do, and I'm very grateful there are people like you in the world who are willing to open their hearts to a senior who's suffered so much.

Yes, there's hope with the cats. It all depends on the dog. I don't have cats, but I've got a couple of friends who foster who are great with cat introductions (both take it very slowly, and I know one uses a water bottle the first week to stop the dog from fixating on the cats). I wouldn't introduce him to cats for at least two weeks though.

He's likely to be a different dog after he decompresses. Do a search here on the forum about the "two week shutdown." It doesn't mean crating the dog and ignoring it for two weeks, but it does give the dog a chance to not have to make any choices or interact with other animals, and just relax, watch, and absorb the rhythm of the house. For these guys who have been through so much badness for so long, this quiet period seems to give them a chance to come out of their shells at their own pace, after they understand how the humans and animals in the home live together. Not every dog needs it, or needs a full two weeks, but there are some dogs it seems to really work wonders with.

It's going to take a long time to get his skin healthy, after years of infection. Be patient, give him good supplements, and take lots of pictures to remind yourself as the weeks go by how far he's come as he starts to heal. You may not see that progress from day to day, but the pictures will help you appreciate the progress from week to week and month to month.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 01:01 PM
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WOW. Thank you SO much for allowing this sweet dog to have a chance at a happy ending, especially after such horrible conditions.

I do almost exactly what Magwart explains above. I always do a shut down period. I also add in that when the new dog is out of the crate, if they are not outside, they are mostly tethered to me.

I don't have cats but I have a small dog but I think you could probably do this with a cat. Once the two weeks (or whatever time works for you) of shut down is completed I usually crate and rotate my little dog (as we call her) with the foster (new dog). That way if either critter gets upset or becomes reactive/aggressive they are segregated. I only correct behavior that is inappropriate but otherwise we ignore ignore ignore. Occasionally I will walk by and drop in a treat to whoever is in the crate. No comments, no acknowledgement just drop in a treat and move on. I also do not allow any toys/items out of or inside the crate. This way there is no competition over who gets what.

I decrease the amount of time each critter gets in the crate and then start with very slow introductions. Over time the two animals have been so accustomed to being around one another with the crate that when the introductions start....most times....they could care less. If anyone back slides, then take a few steps back and utilize the crate again.

Introductions on neutral grounds often work better than on home turf but I suppose that isn't as easy with a cat.

Of course there is no guarantee that this would work but it provides a safe separation for you to control the environment.

Good luck!!!

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 03:09 AM
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I just posted this info a few days ago and it contains the same info I would give here!

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ml#post7165106

I'll pull out a couple of links, however, to highlight them for this case.
You just got the dog so this would be a wise procedure to follow:
I just got a rescued dog – what do I do? | stickydogblog

You don't "know" this dog. I do this with all dogs I work with because "I" don't know them. :
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

Just the "walk" part is important you keep people out of his face and don't be tempted to try and trick him by having folks get to know him, by having them give him treats. That could end badly?? And no dog to dog meetings with unknow dogs. He only has to be comfortable with you and your family and "safe" around everyone else! And he does not need doggy friends to do that.

You will also need to keep a "drag leash" on the dog ( a short leash with the handle cut off) the dog drags it around the house.

In the link above you will find "Sit on the Dog" and "The Place Command" both extremely useful!

The above links also "happen" to have the "tools" you need to deal with the cat! The "Drag leash" and "The Place Command" I'll explain in a bit.

It happens to be the case that I do have cats! At the high point, I had up to 17 cats and 4 dogs living together. I used to be in cat rescue and yeah kinda kept a lot of them. They shared a house and yard together and in 15 years of cats and dogs living together, I have "never" had a single Dog v Cat situation.

There is only one rule in dogs and cats living peacefully together...The Dog "NEVER CHASES,"the cats, period! There are "NO" negotiations, "NO" discussions! And yeah no squirt bottle required!.

You need to make it "crystal clear" to the dog, that "cat chasing" will not be tolerated! All it should take is "one" swift hard correction and the point will be made! If he moves towards the cat you grab the drag leash and say "Down" once! If he doesn't Down you pull him sideways and downwards and repeat with a "Stay!" If he does not know those commands?? He will in short order!

The goal is the cats are not a subject of "investigation" or "curiousty" they are to be left alone. Now if the cat chooses to approach the dogs?? That's fine and if they "know" the dog is "under" control they will approach and sleep with and on and play with, or...maybe not, they are Cats, they do what they want. But the no is "not" allowed to approach the cat.

As it happens I have not had to do that hard correction myself. Even with my most hardcore dog (sigh) Rocky my GSD. High-Rank drive pack issues with my BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix and Rocky starting fights. And then Human Aggression following that! But the Cats?? Nope, not a problem! He knew that was a "line" not to be crossed!!

Any of my dogs can do this:


They would not even realize they were doing anything?? And the rule applied with "any" cat. My dogs did not even "perceive" cats in the environment! Makes life on walks much easier!



So that's how I do the Dog/Cat thing. But there are the Leerburgh approach (he allows a bit more liberty than I do) and Joe Galaxy. Joe Galaxy is not my style, but I just pass info on and let folks decide how to proceed!

I'll get those up tomorrow. Cats seem to be the thing on the Boxerforum now also.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip18 View Post
You need to make it "crystal clear" to the dog, that "cat chasing" will not be tolerated! All it should take is "one" swift hard correction and the point will be made! If he moves towards the cat you grab the drag leash and say "Down" once! If he doesn't Down you pull him sideways and downwards and repeat with a "Stay!" If he does not know those commands?? He will in short order!

The goal is the cats are not a subject of "investigation" or "curiousty" they are to be left alone. Now if the cat chooses to approach the dogs?? That's fine and if they "know" the dog is "under" control they will approach and sleep with and on and play with, or...maybe not, they are Cats, they do what they want. But the no is "not" allowed to approach the cat.
But first let that poor dog adjust and keep him away from the cats and the cats away from him for a few weeks. If he is in bad shape you don't want to start with corrections but build a bond first. He probably has been mistreated all his life already. Thank you for giving him a retirement. Take before and after picture. I have done this with foster dogs and the changes are amazing to watch.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 12:36 PM
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This is a senior dog that's already been abused per the thread title. For Pete's sake, please don't start out with "hard" corrections right out of the box with an abused, senior dog inside it's first home, ever!

The life he's led almost guarantees this old dog has some "twinges and hinges" (maybe in the joints, maybe in the spine). Please get to know his aches and pains before you take anyone's advice on "hard" corrections at his age.

WolfyDog is right -- keep the dog and cats apart, and give the poor creature time to not have to deal with any of that. Let him learn to trust and feel safe, maybe for the first time in his entire life. Dogs and cats together is weeks away--maybe even months away, as he'll progress at his pace.

Seniors often learn at a much slower pace than young dogs -- some of them have never had anyone try to teach them anything, so the cause-and-effect connections aren't as obvious to them as they are to dogs that have been learning with humans since a young age. They may perceive a "correction" as just more human-being-mean, which is what they've always known. That's not fair. It can take a while to reboot their brains and get them learning -- I had one old foster dog who was utterly confused by being lured with treats to sit for about a month, and then one day, she seemed to shake off the cobwebs and make the connection. The lightbulb went off, and her whole face lit up when she figured it out--from then on, it was easier to teach her anything, as she had finally "learned how to learn." For a while, though, it seemed like she'd never get it....so be prepared to be very patient with teaching the dog.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 01:06 PM
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ETA:
I know Chip knows the need to give a rescue dog time because he's posted about it elsewhere: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

His post above could easily be interpreted by someone new to dog rescuing to suggest having a heavy hand with corrections in the beginning to force a senior dog to accept cats. Hopefully that's not what he meant to convey. I suspect his advice was intended more generally for young, healthy, hard-headed dogs without a history of abuse.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
ETA:
I know Chip knows the need to give a rescue dog time because he's posted about it elsewhere: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

His post above could easily be interpreted by someone new to dog rescuing to suggest having a heavy hand with corrections in the beginning to force a senior dog to accept cats. Hopefully that's not what he meant to convey. I suspect his advice was intended more generally for young, healthy, hard-headed dogs without a history of abuse.
As I said ...I am not done. And per my first post, I should have done this. Pretty sure I spelled it out but just to be pedantic...from me also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip18 View Post
I just posted this info a few days ago and it contains the same info I would give here!

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ml#post7165106

I'll pull out a couple of links, however, to highlight them for this case.
You just got the dog so this would be a wise procedure to follow:
I just got a rescued dog – what do I do? | stickydogblog

You don't "know" this dog. I do this with all dogs I work with because "I" don't know them. :
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

Just the "walk" part is important you keep people out of his face and don't be tempted to try and trick him by having folks get to know him, by having them give him treats. That could end badly?? And no dog to dog meetings with unknow dogs. He only has to be comfortable with you and your family and "safe" around everyone else! And he does not need doggy friends to do that.

You will also need to keep a "drag leash" on the dog ( a short leash with the handle cut off) the dog drags it around the house.

In the link above you will find "Sit on the Dog" and "The Place Command" both extremely useful!

The above links also "happen" to have the "tools" you need to deal with the cat! The "Drag leash" and "The Place Command" I'll explain in a bit.

It happens to be the case that I do have cats! At the high point, I had up to 17 cats and 4 dogs living together. I used to be in cat rescue and yeah kinda kept a lot of them. They shared a house and yard together and in 15 years of cats and dogs living together, I have "never" had a single Dog v Cat situation.

There is only one rule in dogs and cats living peacefully together...The Dog "NEVER CHASES,"the cats, period! There are "NO" negotiations, "NO" discussions! And yeah no squirt bottle required!.

You need to make it "crystal clear" to the dog, that "cat chasing" will not be tolerated! All it should take is "one" swift hard correction and the point will be made! If he moves towards the cat you grab the drag leash and say "Down" once! If he doesn't Down you pull him sideways and downwards and repeat with a "Stay!" If he does not know those commands?? He will in short order!

The goal is the cats are not a subject of "investigation" or "curiousty" they are to be left alone. Now if the cat chooses to approach the dogs?? That's fine and if they "know" the dog is "under" control they will approach and sleep with and on and play with, or...maybe not, they are Cats, they do what they want. But the no is "not" allowed to approach the cat.

As it happens I have not had to do that hard correction myself. Even with my most hardcore dog (sigh) Rocky my GSD. High-Rank drive pack issues with my BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix and Rocky starting fights. And then Human Aggression following that! But the Cats?? Nope, not a problem! He knew that was a "line" not to be crossed!!

Any of my dogs can do this:


They would not even realize they were doing anything?? And the rule applied with "any" cat. My dogs did not even "perceive" cats in the environment! Makes life on walks much easier!



So that's how I do the Dog/Cat thing. But there are the Leerburgh approach (he allows a bit more liberty than I do) and Joe Galaxy. Joe Galaxy is not my style, but I just pass info on and let folks decide how to proceed!

I'll get those up tomorrow. Cats seem to be the thing on the Boxerforum now also.
That better??
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 07:09 PM
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So pressing onward with the cat thing. People that "try" and adopt a dog and already have cats are the ones that have the most difficult times! I was in a very long detailed thread/pm with a "failed" rescue attempt a few months ago. The dog was returned to rescue because these adopters could not "get" the concept I described!

Personally I did not think the dog was "that bad" they posted "clips" and "I' did not see a cat "killer??" But it was to much for them so it was a "NO GO!"

So these days I make a stronger case! But first as I said...I am not done here! And second I like people to know "what I do" I feel that the information I tend to provide is solid advice! All the "Pro's" that I am aware of tell how to do the Dog and Cat thing and get it right!

The people that struggle for "weeks, months and years" are the ones that allowed the dog to chase the cat from the outset!

The people that struggle and fail are the ones that go the "escape route root!" They tend to figure, I believe "Hey I'm not that good at training a dog so I best have a plan B! That is not my style as regards Dog v Cat! Apparently in this situation I am an "expert??" If my own proven record is not good enough?? The fact that I seem to be the first to spell it out should be?? As I said only one rule:

The Dog never chases the cat...period! Now if someone else has said that in plain English??? Please do point them out to me! I'm here to learn also.

So moving on and despite my "tone" I'm not here to tell anyone that "my" way is the only! As it happens there is a "softer" approach! And again as it happens, I've already posted it! All the "pieces" are in the post I linked already, all one has to do is put them together!

I "myself, only realized it was there after a year or so of always saying "The "Dog Never Chases the cat...period!" I finally saw it!

I'm sure "two's" of people can see it and put the pieces together?? For everybody else...I will spell it out in abit!

But in keeping with "my" self appointed goal of providing information that works I'll now present the "Joe Galaxy" ie the "My Cat from ****" guy! He knows cats!

Obviously...it's not my style! But I'm not here to say do it my way or your doomed! I only provide "information" and people are free to chose!

So for a "softer approach" as regards Dog v Cat:
Cat-to-Dog Introductions | Little Big Cat

And I also have to add that an E-Collar is also a possibility. As far as I know "The fastest and most human way to train your dog is with the proper use of an E-Collar.

The "protocol" is called "crittering":
Game Chasing (Crittering)

Not my thing but the author of the site is a member here, and the OP is free to send him a PM!

And yeah I'm still not done here just yet.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-02-2015, 02:19 AM
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Hmmm well, we seem to have lost the OP?? And that's too bad! As I said...I was not done here and I will continue regardless of the whereabouts of the OP!

Yes, I kinda roll hardcore at times! Reason for that "especially" with "cat" people turning dog people is because most "cat" people are terrified at the prospect of things going badly! They are "hoping" that things work out???



That "approach" did not work out well here:
https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...questions.html

A lot of "us" spent a lot of time working with this member online and using PM's. And it was a "fail!" They could not get past the "fear!" I felt that "perhaps" my message was not clear enough?? "The dog never chases the cat!" I guess they kinda sort of did it?? But the dog in the crate, "everytime" is not what I had envisioned! This time I wanted to make it "crystal clear" as it were!

That is a much different "mindset" than someone who "hopes" things will "work out??" So if one has that as a goal (the dog never chases the cat!) then the question becomes..."OK, how do I do that??"

Well in keeping with "I just got a rescue..." if you can't watch the dog keep him in a crate. If the dog needs to be crate trained, well that's another deal! If the dog is in a crate...he can't chase the cat!

When the dog is out although I have not done it myself...tether the dog to you! If the dog is tethered to you...he can't chase the cat!

Then behaviour modification in the forms of "Sit on the Dog:"

Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog, aka: The long down
Energy - it's all about confid-tude

And the Place Command:
Why the “Place” Command is So Important and Your Dog Should Know It! - TheDogTrainingSecret.com
The Magic Of Duration Work | The Good Dog Life Blog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE


"Doing" Sit on the Dog and "Training" The Place Command...trains "calmness" into the dog! You will be training an "Off Switch!" (A quote from Bailiff )


Don't worry about the cat, a cat knows when a dog is out of control and if it is...they won't have anything to do with that dog! When the cat starts to show up and hang around the dog...your job is done!

But if out the gate the dog is allowed to harass the cat?? Good luck with that!

And to my critics...how was this??
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