Compulsion in ipo training. - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
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Compulsion in ipo training.

this is from another thread.

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Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
Amazing. Hopefully one day I can learn.

You probably won't answer this but how much force is used to train a dog like that? In percentages

I'm not asking so I can judge, your dog looks happy so even if it was all force it must've been used right

I think I watched too many videos and have this idea that everyone trains mostly positive. Then go out to trainers and see something different. I almost stopped going to a good trainer because of it. I wish people were more straight up about these things.
I'm hoping for honest answers. I'm not against force at all but what happens is that I watch videos, read stuff and then feel like a loser when I have to use force on my dog because treats alone don't work.

also, as I said, I almost stopped going to a really good trainer because he doesn't use ME and Ivan's methods.
I can't get past this notion that using force is the lazy way out. That the really good trainers should be able to teach a dog to WANT to work.

Then I watch videos of dogs on the field and they look like they want to work. I'm confused.


ETA therr was a thread here a few days ago about someone who used to train with force and is now training for ipo with no compulsion at all. No prongs, ecollars, corrections of any kind. Not sure if anyone replied.

So is it possible to not use any force? Is it really a lazy way out to use force?

Last edited by lalachka; 09-23-2014 at 03:11 PM.
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post #2 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:24 PM
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Best to get definitions clear, otherwise 3 people may say the same thing but with different understandings. So, to you,
1. What is force?
2. What is no force?

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post #3 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Best to get definitions clear, otherwise 3 people may say the same thing but with different understandings. So, to you,
1. What is force?
2. What is no force?

1. Force is using force to teach. For example, teach the dog to down by pulling them with a leash as opposed to luring them.
2. No force is using only positive methods to teach. So you lure into everything or capture and mark and only start correcting once you feel the dog knows and just doesn't comply.

Thank you, you're right. This wasn't going to go well )))
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post #4 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:28 PM
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Possible to use no force? No I doubt it. Maybe in some venues, but not in the real world. My overall process goes something like this
Using something you want, I teach/shape a behavior I want.
Then, once I'm sure you know what I want, inevitably I must show you there are consequences to not doing what I want... i.e., this is not solely about you getting what you want.

Different actions by the dog may carry different severity of correction from me. Bite me with malice (when I'm the handler) is up at the top of severity of consequences.

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post #5 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Packen View Post
Best to get definitions clear, otherwise 3 people may say the same thing but with different understandings. So, to you,
1. What is force?
2. What is no force?
compulsion: the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.

force: make (someone) do something against their will.

So anycase where the dog would not be doing it of their own volition.

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post #6 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterisgreat View Post
Possible to use no force? No I doubt it. Maybe in some venues, but not in the real world. My overall process goes something like this
Using something you want, I teach/shape a behavior I want.
Then, once I'm sure you know what I want, inevitably I must show you there are consequences to not doing what I want... i.e., this is not solely about you getting what you want.

Different actions by the dog may carry different severity of correction from me. Bite me with malice (when I'm the handler) is up at the top of severity of consequences.
Yep, this is what I like. Not easy to find around here or maybe I don't know how to look.
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post #7 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:37 PM
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My process is much like Hunter's in a nutshell. Some things the dog simply doesn't want to do. Those are forced. I prefer a balanced approach. I want things to stay as fun and positive as possible, but at some point there needs to be consequences. There is also a lot more involved in compulsion style training than just popping a pinch collar.

As far as a willingness to work. IMO that's genetic. You can't train that. Either the dog wants to work or it doesn't.
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post #8 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:37 PM
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Dog training is light learning to paint. You develop your skill and understanding by doing it and watching the masters do it. It takes a long time and you never really stop learning.
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post #9 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:40 PM
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IMO…true compulsion will not get you far. You can’t teach some of the things that you need to in IPO with 100% compulsion. It’s too much stress/pressure on the dog and only the strongest of dogs will withstand it. If the dog doesn’t break down, it won’t work the way other dogs work and therefore won’t win much/go far. You might be able to title…but even that’s unlikely. I can’t fathom teaching tracking with compulsion.

High level competitors…won’t work with a dog that they need to “get to work.” It’s too much time and too much stress (for both the dog and the handler) and just not worth it. If your dog doesn’t want to do the work…there’s no reason to push it to do the work.

I still use corrections, but only when my dog knows what’s expected and I’m just fixing it. Sometimes it’s necessary to teach a dog positioning or when a dog blows you off. A strong/powerful dog, will need a correction eventually.

There are still trainers out there that train using a lot of pressure. It’s the way Schutzhund was 20 years ago and these people haven’t changed. But I’d be super shocked if anyone that is going to be at nationals in a month uses more compulsion than positive training techniques.

You might be confused by thinking most people are 100% compulsion or 100% PO. The majority of people I know, do both. You just don’t TEACH exercises with compulsion if you want the dog to work in high drive. Once the dog knows what’s expected, you’ll probably need to correct some things in order to get things exactly right.
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post #10 of 177 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
My process is much like Hunter's in a nutshell. Some things the dog simply doesn't want to do. Those are forced. I prefer a balanced approach. I want things to stay as fun and positive as possible, but at some point there needs to be consequences. There is also a lot more involved in compulsion style training than just popping a pinch collar.

As far as a willingness to work. IMO that's genetic. You can't train that. Either the dog wants to work or it doesn't.
What doesn't your dog want to do?

I know that there's much more to it, just don't know what lol. Can you give a few examples?

Yes, I'm starting to accept that my dog just doesn't have what it takes. I do agree that it's genetic.
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