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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Michael Ellis training questions

I'm rewatching all his videos and will post questions that come up. This way I don't open a thousand threads


In the food dvd, at the end when he talks about fading he says that the goal is variable reinforcement.

So does that mean the behavior isn't marked every time or it's marked every time just not reinforced with food?
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 09:03 PM
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Not marked or rewarded. ME rewards for every mark. You start asking for multiple behaviors before a mark and reward. This increases incrementally over time until the dog stays focused and in drive through the complete routine.

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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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In that same section he marks a sit with a good and doesn't feed. Then says yes and feeds. That was confusing and that's what made me think about this

But this makes the most sense (your reply), thank you

Do you know a good video for leave it? I want to teach it to use for my cat and people and dogs. Like he's about to bug out on someone and if I caught it before he bugs out I want to say leave it. Then if he doesn't leave it I will correct.

Is this how it's done?
If so then which video is good?
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
In that same section he marks a sit with a good and doesn't feed. Then says yes and feeds. That was confusing and that's what made me think about this
"Yes" is the marker, which ends the behavior, as it's also the release cue. "Good" is an acknowledgement that the dog is doing what it's supposed to, but it should continue doing it. It's not a marker. Marked behavior must be rewarded, but letting the dog know they're doing good isn't the same thing.

Teaching a stay, or that the dog should remain in place until released whether an actual stay command is given or not (many people do not use a stay command as staying in position until released is implied) is a good example. Teaching focus is another. In both cases, once I start working on duration, I need to let the dog know that they're doing what I've asked, but I don't want to mark and reward it quite yet because I want them to keep doing it.

Quote:
Do you know a good video for leave it?
Here's an article: Teaching Your Dog to "Leave It" On Cue - Whole Dog Journal Article

A video:


This impulse control game teaches an implied "leave it" in that the dog is not given a command, he has to figure out that ignoring the food makes you give him the food, and trying to get it makes the gravy train stop, so to speak. I like to add attention, so the dog has to look away from the food at me:


-Debbie-
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Keefer 8/25/05-4/24/19 ~ The sweetest boy
Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18 ~ You left pawprints on our hearts
Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08 ~ Forever would have been too short
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 10:13 PM
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I just use no. Whatever your intent was when I said it you had better stop. Leave it for me is a food refusal comman.
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 11:09 PM Thread Starter
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Cassidy 's mom, I thought good is a duration marker and it's also rewarded. I know he's def rewarding it in the beginning. When he has us charge the markers we charge both good and yes markers.

Baillif, you know his stuff. Right? Or am I misunderstanding something?

as far as the games, thank you, I've been doing them already. I watched your video as well))))) you posted it in someone's thread.
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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I just use no. Whatever your intent was when I said it you had better stop. Leave it for me is a food refusal comman.
Someone suggested to use a leave it for this but I also say no, it's just an automatic already.

OK then how do I teach what no means? As it stands now, I'm saying a word he doesn't understand and then correcting for non compliance. I'm exaggerating a little, I think he knows he's not supposed to bark at people but you know what I mean. I never taught him NO
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 11:21 PM
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Good is a duration marker and gets rewarded, but it's not a release. Later in training, I don't reward every marker. I use it more as communication, moving to variable rewards after the mark.

It should be said that I don't train competitive OB, and I'm not looking for that flash that the AKC and IPO trainers are looking for.

I train leave it with markers. There is a good video with a guy training in a garage, throwing food on the floor and marking focus back on the handler with a final release to get the food on the floor.

I move to corrections (NePoPo with a prong and e-collar) after the dog gets it. I also use leave it in detection to get the dog to leave a hide and move on to the next search instead of returning to the hide it just found. This helps reinforce the reward. No corrections in the detection training, but I will negative mark a return to the initial hide.

David Winners

When a dog saves the life of a man, it becomes clear that partnership knows no bounds.

Fama - T.E.D.D. OEF XI-XII (GSD)(RIP)
Marshall - T.E.D.D. OEF XII-XIII (Lab)(SF EDD)
Lucian - Med Alert / Mobility SD (Cane Corso)
Pud - the old man (Pit x Lab)
Hank - DW Dog (Cane Corso)
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 11:26 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I know it's not a release, my confusion was that he didn't reward it. I thought every marker gets rewarded otherwise after a while it loses its meaning.

Diff trainers say diff things. I had a trainer tell me to always use the marker but not reinforce every time. After a few days he stopped looking at me after I marked.

You're saying you don't reinforce every time either. You don't have this problem ?

As far as leave it, I'm not looking for food refusal, I'm already teaching that. Now I need to teach him what no means. Like he's about to bark at a person, dog, cat. Or do something I don't want him to do.

How do I teach a command that will have him stop doing what he's doing
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-12-2014, 11:44 PM
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Using variable reward for a marker is dependant on being able to read the drive in the dog, and is also dependant on the dog really wanting to work with you.

No for most people is a conditioned punisher. You punish the dog after every instance of NO for a period of time and it becomes punishment in and of itself, just like yes can become rewarding.

David Winners

When a dog saves the life of a man, it becomes clear that partnership knows no bounds.

Fama - T.E.D.D. OEF XI-XII (GSD)(RIP)
Marshall - T.E.D.D. OEF XII-XIII (Lab)(SF EDD)
Lucian - Med Alert / Mobility SD (Cane Corso)
Pud - the old man (Pit x Lab)
Hank - DW Dog (Cane Corso)
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