The two step back sit... - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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The two step back sit...

Hi all,

Sheba (4 mnths) and I have been working together to get her training/commands down. She has never had any training whatsoever. Previous owners taught her kennel and potty through the doggy door.

We went to our first obedience training class this past Saturday and I got schooled more than she did.

Anyhow, training to walk on her leader loose the instructor gave me an option to help me (I'm tall she's super short) when we walk and sit when I stop. She does it as intended, but when we do stop and she sits - instead of winding up right beside me she is a half a human step behind. For an experiment I had her walking ahead of me for a short distance and stopped and even with the additional distance in front of me, she still sat in the same spot! *lol*

I will be addressing this with our trainer but that's not until Saturday. I was wondering if anyone has experienced this before. I have three days left this week to get her closer to me than she is now.

Secondly, she is given her commands in German. Many times when I give her "sitz" she is on point. But then there are moments when I do that, and she does "platz" instead. I just smile and shake my head. Slow down the pronunciation perhaps?

Thanks!
Mike
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 09:17 PM
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Do you mean that she's lagging?

There are a bunch of ways to help with that, but the one I'd try first is to get a nose target (to your hand) or a foot target (to an object that you can position yourself beside, ex. a book or an overturned flowerpot saucer -- this will also give you a head start when you're ready to train pivots and position changes, if you decide to do that) and reinforce heavily for being in the right position relative to you.

I wouldn't expect this to be finished in three days. Three months might be more reasonable.

If she's offering a Down when you ask for a Sit, that's a good problem to have: it means she's eager to offer answers, so you have a certain amount of cooperation to work with, but she's not 100% clear on which one means what. Quick, fun, happy drills and lots of rewards for the correct answer will help. This is a very, very common issue and it just needs time and practice to clear up.

If she's just four months old, you're making SUPER progress. Take it slow, be patient, and enjoy the puppy days.

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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 10:00 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Merciel,

No, not lagging, she is right next to me loose lead (and i use a mixing spoon with yumz on it as her target) and when i stop I lift the spoon up straight, slow, and slightly rearwards while saying "sitz". She does the motion to sit all the while albeit backing up too far. Instead of her butt going down like her normal sit, she takes steps back and sits.

And yes, I wasn't expecting perfection in three days. I'd have better luck winning the lottery.

Mhmm! We do play/train/play sessions - and you are correct, she is SO eager to give what I request. I continue to correct her sit/down command but the sitting as we stop has me perplexed...

Michael
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 10:08 PM
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Ah, okay. So at some point when learning that behavior, she must have gotten the idea that she's in the correct position when slightly backed up.

One possibility is that the spoon is tipped too much toward the puppy, and the spatial pressure from the object is causing her to back up. What happens if you hold the spoon slightly forward of your position, like a lure?

Are you using a clicker or marker? If you're also using a spoon because of the height difference, then a clicker may be hard to finagle (one reason I train my dogs with both clicker and marker words is because different versions work better for different situations, and it's handy to have both!), but if you do have a marker, then one solution would be to reward heavily for touching the spoon and stopping, then re-adding the Sit separately.

So you'd first be marking and rewarding (1) dog's position relative to yours (so you reinforce her A LOT just for stopping and standing next to you in Heel position); then separately (2) the position change from Stand to Sit. Break it up to make it clearer to your puppy what exactly you want. (Bonus: you'll have a head start on moving Stands if you decide to train those later, and that is one that a lot of people have trouble with.)

Alternatively, since the spoon target seems to be slightly confused, doing it from the ground up with a foot target may help you get more clarity.

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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
She does it as intended, but when we do stop and she sits - instead of winding up right beside me she is a half a human step behind.
I'm assuming you are teaching the dog to heel and you want her to halt (stop) in basic position when you stop?

Instead of a spoon can you use a treat in your hand? It's easier to manipulate the dog into position?

But honestly, I'd just use the leash to prevent/block the dog from backing up. And do more stationary exercises with the dog in proper basic position and heavily rewarded..

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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 07:20 AM
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she's 4 months old and training is new to her and you. don't
expect to much form her. if you want your dog closer to hold her
closer to you. the dog is on your left. the leash in your right hand
going across your body to the left side of your body. take your
left hand and place over the leash. slide your left hand down the
leash (towards the dog's collar) and bring her closer to you.
you can teach her to heel on either side with or without a leash.
you can teach her to stop at any curb and not to move untill you
give her a command. if you step off the curb and move forward
she stays untill you give her a command. if you pull on the leash
while standing in the street she stays untill you give her a command.

don't rush your training. train everyday. i like training in short sessions.
each session last 5 to 10 minutes. as the dog learns and gets older
the session can become longer. you can conduct many sessions during
the course of a day. don't forget to treat and praise. i give the smallest
amount of a treat but i praise heavily. at some point i phase out the treat.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2013, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merciel View Post
Ah, okay. So at some point when learning that behavior, she must have gotten the idea that she's in the correct position when slightly backed up.

One possibility is that the spoon is tipped too much toward the puppy, and the spatial pressure from the object is causing her to back up. What happens if you hold the spoon slightly forward of your position, like a lure?
Yes, I could not for the life of me figure out why. And as far as the spoon position is concerned, I hold it in front of her just like you mentioned - a lure. She will keep trying to get at it the entire time we are walking - even when the peanut butter is gone!

Quote:
Are you using a clicker or marker? If you're also using a spoon because of the height difference, then a clicker may be hard to finagle (one reason I train my dogs with both clicker and marker words is because different versions work better for different situations, and it's handy to have both!), but if you do have a marker, then one solution would be to reward heavily for touching the spoon and stopping, then re-adding the Sit separately.

So you'd first be marking and rewarding (1) dog's position relative to yours (so you reinforce her A LOT just for stopping and standing next to you in Heel position); then separately (2) the position change from Stand to Sit. Break it up to make it clearer to your puppy what exactly you want. (Bonus: you'll have a head start on moving Stands if you decide to train those later, and that is one that a lot of people have trouble with.)

Alternatively, since the spoon target seems to be slightly confused, doing it from the ground up with a foot target may help you get more clarity.


The best part of that I tried was stand to sit and vice verso. She has learned to go from a lay down position and recalling to her handsome sit. Then with what our trainer showed us with the spoon while walking at a good pace it seemed relevant for her so that when I stopped she sat on her butt handsomely - not the slouchy side sit. So we have been leaving the property and going down to the street corner and going from corner to corner to corner. Each time, stop - sit - recall.


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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2013, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doggiedad View Post
she's 4 months old and training is new to her and you. don't expect to much form her. if you want your dog closer to hold her closer to you. the dog is on your left. the leash in your right hand going across your body to the left side of your body. take your left hand and place over the leash. slide your left hand down the leash (towards the dog's collar) and bring her closer to you. you can teach her to heel on either side with or without a leash. you can teach her to stop at any curb and not to move untill you give her a command. if you step off the curb and move forward she stays untill you give her a command. if you pull on the leash while standing in the street she stays untill you give her a command.
Yes, I would not expect it to happen overnight - albeit some things she did learn in ten minutes, haha! At any rate - the 1.5 year old I helped my neighbor straighten up a bit was pretty good at when you would stop she would stop and sit handsomely every single time. But! She wanted to DRAG you down the street. So I corrected that (even though Mommy didn't keep reinforcing her - and now she is back to pulling again) - lame.

So it was just odd that Sheba would walk on loose lead (9 out of 10 times) and when it came time to stop and sit she would park it so far behind. Even though when we would stop and I would not command her to sit her neck was right at my knee.
I guess it's as the saying goes, "Whatever." hahaha

Quote:
don't rush your training. train everyday. i like training in short sessions. each session last 5 to 10 minutes. as the dog learns and gets older
the session can become longer. you can conduct many sessions during
the course of a day. don't forget to treat and praise. i give the smallest
amount of a treat but i praise heavily. at some point i phase out the treat.
We do mornings before I leave for work, when I come home, and before bedtime. I do one obedience or trick for that day. Like a bodybuilder - legs monday, arms tuesday, etc. When she learns something brand new or does something that I was going to show her on her own - I put on a big hooray party about it.
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2013, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

So this is how well she is doing now. We were walking around the complex and I dropped my water bottle. I quick stopped and turned to pick it up (thinking she would just follow) and OOF! I got boat anchored! I turned to look and she was sitting solid and handsome. LOTS of praises on the spot!
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