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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Stubborn

Going to try to keep this short... I have taken my almost 9 month old GSD to 3 training classes with 3 different trainers because NOTHING works for this dog. She will not listen to me at all! She blows me off and refuses to do anything, she wont come when called, even if I have a treat in my hand she would rather not do what she is asked/told to do and will just walk off or just keep ignoring me so I have to put her in the position she needs to be in... I have worked tirelessly trying to train her, first was clicker training, then positive reinforcement where she would get a treat here and there but mainly praise only... Ive tried verbal corrections Ive tried collar pops, I went from using a regular flat nylon buckle collar to a martingale and thinking of switching to a prong because she doesnt care about getting a correction she just wants to do her own thing...

Im at my wits ends, I work with her multiple times a day (about 5, 2 - 5 minuet sessions). I just want a well behaved dog my last GSD was so smart and wanted to work and trained really easily, and this GSD its like there is nothing between those big ears.

A friend told me that it could be because she is not fixed and where I am female and she is a female she feels the need to challenge me on everything, could this be whats happening?

Will also mention she knows the commands because she will do them sometimes she knows both hand signals and verbal cues which have been consistent. I just dont know what to do anymore

HELP!
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
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I will also mention Ive tried to use her toys as a reward instead of treats but she still does the same thing
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 08:31 AM
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Most young dogs have a high need to play and release energy and you can take advantage of that need to train your dog. How do you play with her? It is important to have a "relationship" with her, meaning you are interesting and she looks to you for play/energy release. Thru play (tug, balls, etc) where you are the key to animating those play objects, your dog develops a desire to interact with you.


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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 08:42 AM Thread Starter
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I play tug with her and I also use her flirt pole several times a day... I use training while using the flirt pole but again half the time she wont listen... I make her sits/platz/bleib and aus but even then half the time Im putting her in the position... She has a decent bleib (stay), and she will sit after I tell her X amount of times and platz forget it I have to tell her to do it with collar corrections so many times and she just wont do it but she knows the command because for a while she did really well and did listen to me (most of the time) and would platz from front and from the side but I just dont know what happened she just doesnt want to do it anymore I dont know why she needs so many corrections and so many times of me putting her in the position she already knows!

I do make myself fun, we go for an hour long walk first thing in the morning and another 1 hour walk around 9pm and during the day is random play with her flirt pole or tug rope and where its crazy hot right now I use the hose and let her chase the water and she plays in her pool so I think I am making myself fun...

But she challenges me and lately (I havent had this problem for a few months now and its coming back) she will start chewing the couch and I cant get her away from it even with a treat or a toy I literally have to grab her mouth get her to release the couch and move her away then she will rush back and start doing it again.. she started to chew off the wallpaper in the bathroom while I'm right there... Like what the heck is wrong with her?
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 08:43 AM
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I might add, that I myself have never encountered a "stubborn" dog. Usually when people describe their dog as stubborn, it turns out to be a relationship/communication problem with the handler. And since dogs don't communicate the same way as we humans do, it is not uncommon for people to feel their dog is being stubborn.

In the end, I realize that some dogs are easier to train but being down-right "stubborn" is humanizing the dog, in my opinion and experience.

Find a good trainer that can teach you how to interact with your dog in a way that is meaningful to her. Even reading books on how dogs learn would be helpful. Making play about you and her (so avoid letting the dog amuse itself or getting energy release thru playing with dogs). Just some suggestions.

Books: Excel-erated Learning by Pamela Reid
The power of positive dog training by Pat Miller
Reaching the animal mind by Karen Pryor
For the love of a dog by Patricia Mcconnell
Purely Positive Training by Sheila Booth


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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 08:55 AM
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I posted the previous post at about the same time as you posted so I did not see your post about how you play. I was a web designer for many years and one thing we learned is you cannot ask people what they like or understand (like thru a survey) you have to WATCH them to see what they really are doing. So, based on your previous post, I would say that you need to back off the thought that sometime is wrong with your dog and re-assess what you are doing. You might think you are fun but by her behavior, it is not translating as fun for her. I have seen people insist their dog play with a certain toy (for instance a tug) because that is what their friends use to motivate their dog. When the dog really would rather interact with a ball. You need to figure out what makes your dog tick and that can only be accomplished by trying to understand what works for her.

Management is also important at her age. If she is unreliable in the house, as she most obviously is, then crate her when you can't be there to keep her from being destructive.

It is hard to provide detailed instruction thru an internet conversation so finding a good trainer that can assist you with your dog is imperative. Good luck! I am sure you can figure her out. Remember, she is still very young.


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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pblossom View Post
I make her sits/platz/bleib and aus but even then half the time Im putting her in the position... She has a decent bleib (stay), and she will sit after I tell her X amount of times and platz forget it I have to tell her to do it with collar corrections so many times and she just wont do it but she knows the command because for a while she did really well and did listen to me (most of the time) and would platz from front and from the side but I just dont know what happened she just doesnt want to do it anymore I dont know why she needs so many corrections and so many times of me putting her in the position she already knows!
Honestly, I doubt seriously if the dog "knows the commands." I would back WAY up. Quit using your command words.
Will the dog follow your hand for treats? Lure into sit, down, etc. No commands.
Once you are sure she will follow your hand for treats, do that 3 times, then try with no treat in hand. Be very sure you are using the same hand gesture and body language. As soon as she sits, mark it with a click or marker word like "yes" and then reward.
No corrections, no jabbering away at her, no command words. Keep training short and fun.

Once she reliably follows your hand into positions, then add the cue word right before the hand signal.

Last edited by gagsd; 07-16-2013 at 09:30 AM.
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by pblossom View Post
so I think I am making myself fun...

But she challenges me and lately (I havent had this problem for a few months now and its coming back) she will start chewing the couch and I cant get her away from it even with a treat or a toy I literally have to grab her mouth get her to release the couch and move her away then she will rush back and start doing it again.. she started to chew off the wallpaper in the bathroom while I'm right there... Like what the heck is wrong with her?
Just because you think you are being fun, does not mean the dog sees it that way.

You say she challenges you. How?

Her chewing could be puppy and not enough exercise, or it could be a stress behavior. As Jan said, more exercise, limit her options with the use of crate, x-pen or "puppy-proofed room" and make sure she has plenty of legitimate chewing toys.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by pblossom View Post
Going to try to keep this short... I have taken my almost 9 month old GSD to 3 training classes with 3 different trainers because NOTHING works for this dog. She will not listen to me at all! She blows me off and refuses to do anything, she wont come when called, even if I have a treat in my hand she would rather not do what she is asked/told to do and will just walk off or just keep ignoring me so I have to put her in the position she needs to be in... I have worked tirelessly trying to train her, first was clicker training, then positive reinforcement where she would get a treat here and there but mainly praise only... Ive tried verbal corrections Ive tried collar pops, I went from using a regular flat nylon buckle collar to a martingale and thinking of switching to a prong because she doesnt care about getting a correction she just wants to do her own thing...

Im at my wits ends, I work with her multiple times a day (about 5, 2 - 5 minuet sessions). I just want a well behaved dog my last GSD was so smart and wanted to work and trained really easily, and this GSD its like there is nothing between those big ears.

A friend told me that it could be because she is not fixed and where I am female and she is a female she feels the need to challenge me on everything, could this be whats happening?

Will also mention she knows the commands because she will do them sometimes she knows both hand signals and verbal cues which have been consistent. I just dont know what to do anymore

HELP!

Time to start over from square one. Right now, it sounds like you are not the most important thing in your pups life. So that's what you need to build on. EVERYTHING comes from you. Food needs to be worked for and hand-fed. Make her work for it by doing commands, tricks, etc. Toys need to be only brought out by you for play and then when play time is up, they need to be put up again. And you need to go back and re-train focus. Baby steps. Call the dog's name. When she looks at you, reward. Do that over and over until she's consistently looking at you when you call her name. Then, take it up a notch.. don't say anything to the dog, but watch carefully and as soon as she looks at you (unprompted), reward. Again, do consistently until she's repeatedly looking to you. Then, increase duration... Once she looks at you, have her hold it for a few seconds and then reward.. Slowly increase the duration. Eventually, you can move this outside and work on getting her attention outside with all of the smells and sounds and sights. Also, make it fun! Don't just give her a treat as a reward.. Instead, in the highest, most excited voice you can, PRAISE her and then give her the treat. You need to teach her that YOU are exciting and good things come from you! Also, play games with her.. For example, if she has a favorite toy, take her outside on a long leash (30 foot for example) and just take off running with her favorite toy. Make her chase you.. Then let her "win" the toy for a minute or two, maybe play some tug, and then take it back and take off again. This will build her drive to engage with you.

Just a few tips.. Hope some of these help!
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-16-2013, 11:02 AM
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I don't think the issue is one of training or being stubborn. I think this dog has low to no pack instinct -- no interest in handler . It would be interesting to see the pedigree .

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