Tab289 Dominance Debunked - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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Tab289 Dominance Debunked

So I ran into this video which basically says the pack/domination mentality is faulty. I'm guessing most of you know about this guy (Tab289) as he deals and trains his GSD (and does a great job as the videos indicate).

Everything he said makes a LOT of sense and makes it more clear to me why I'm not doing such a great job at training my dogs.


What do you guys think?
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 08:23 PM
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Haven't watched it yet (low on time, I'll watch it tm morning when I get home from work) - but I've kind of always thought the pack mentality idea was mostly bogus because I really doubt dogs see us the same as another canine pack member. They may (and should) see their owners as "dominant" but the idea that we are alpha in their "doggy pack" is kind of silly, IMHO. Dogs are smart enough to tell that these funny, bizarre, upright, half deaf creatures who can't smell worth a darn are not one of them.
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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 08:28 PM
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I tried lots of different videos at first. His seemed to work the best for me. Then I got a trainer and started schutzhund so it all went out the window
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-22-2012, 08:40 PM
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He is a positive methods trainer as i'm sure you've already guessed. His videos are recommended often as how to videos for training something because he gives clear signals and explains how to achieve the goals for the training well.

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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 06:52 PM
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I don't buy the fact that dominant dogs do not exist (unless he insists on his out-of-context definition of dominance), or that wolf:dog is the same as monkey:human. Humans are so much more advanced than monkeys, that the comparison doesn't make any sense. I do not think dogs are as different from wolves as we are from monkeys, not even close.

And when he describes learning theory, he says to reward good behaviors and remove the reward for bad behaviors. Huh? What happened to corrections? He seemed to skip over it completely. If he wants to convert people, he should explain why he left corrections out, since corrections are used effectively by dogs/wolves, and have been used by people with success for generations.

Predictably, he got into Cesar bashing mode during the video. Yet I have seen no video of his where he is working with any troubled dogs at all. He teaches tricks and regular obedience. I am not saying positive-only methods can't work (eventually) with an aggressive dog, but it's very easy to support completely banning corrections if you don't ever take on problem/aggressive dog cases.

Lastly, I can't stand seeing his grill all close up to the camera like that. How annoying.

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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 06:58 PM
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Using positive training doesn't include corrections, that's why.
Contrary to some prevailing beliefs, you don't have to correct a dog to teach it
It is much much easier to teach a dog what to do (using rewards) than what not to do (using corrections).

Imagine this scenario.
You see your dog potty on the rug. You run over, screaming, and rub it's nose in it's doo. Then maybe crate it, maybe put it outside (not going outside with it).
What have you taught the puppy at that point?

The other scenario - you are proactive. You take the puppy out every 45min. - 1hr. You crate it while it's not being supervised. You reward the puppy outside every time it goes potty outside.
What have you taught the puppy at this point?

Last edited by msvette2u; 02-23-2012 at 07:01 PM.
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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 07:03 PM
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You can train without corrections. The killer whale trainers do it all the time. How do you think they would "correct" a whale?
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyfarm View Post
You can train without corrections. The killer whale trainers do it all the time. How do you think they would "correct" a whale?
I really hate these reasons. They sound cute and like they make oh so much sense, but do you really want to know why it's so easy to train whales without a correction?

Because they can pick up their pail of fish and walk away. The whale has no other options. Talk about "learned" helplessness. The whale simply can't do another ****ing thing in the world, but sit in a tank and starve. So it makes it pretty **** easy to train a whale. I think that is a pretty severe correction if I do say so myself. But of course most ignore that part of it so they can fit into their neat little paradigm, that or they just parrot what they hear and never even think about what they're saying.

sure you can train without corrections, more power to you. But considering dogs learn from 4 quadrants, not one or two, i'm trying to find the best ways to use them all. makes perfect sense to me.
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 08:09 PM
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I guess this is becoming another positive only vs corrections debate.

Quote:
It is much much easier to teach a dog what to do (using rewards) than what not to do (using corrections).
But to answer msvette2u. The way you worded your question/statement, and the way positive-only trainers tend to word the question, suggests that people who use a correction in training are ONLY using corrections to train the dog. As if a training session consists of only waiting for the dog to do the wrong things, so the trainer can punish the dog. Please.

That is obviously wrong, and that sort of distorted language confuses the real issue and IMO decreases the credibility of those who continually regurgitate that kind of argument. Most people use corrections as a PART of training.

To say that "it can be done" purely positive is not an argument for why corrections should be completely banned.

Go ahead and address the fact that dogs efficiently/effectively correct each other all the time.

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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-23-2012, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
As if a training session consists of only waiting for the dog to do the wrong things, so the trainer can punish the dog. Please.
Yes I have heard this sentiment voiced.
Yes my example is one extreme but I've seen it being done so I will talk about it.
For example, the person came on and thought they had to wait until the puppy had an accident inside, so they could correct it. I've seen that mentality over and over, so yes, it's a valid concern.

Quote:
Go ahead and address the fact that dogs efficiently/effectively correct each other all the time.
Really?? We are not dogs. We should not try to mimic them.
We are dog's leaders and that's the best way to behave with them, as their leader, not their pack-mate.


I am curious why the venom? Why such animosity towards positive-only training??

Last edited by msvette2u; 02-23-2012 at 08:15 PM.
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