Establishing dominance, really? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Establishing dominance, really?

Ok, I know that GSDs are herders, not a livestock guardian breed like a Great Pyrenees. That the dog is bred to work alone, without humans, and to live with the flock 24/7.
That said, is this REALLY the recommended training method?

I'm trying to picture what would happen if you took a working line GSD, even a pup, alpha rolled him and put your face into his and growled. Does your basic health insurance cover cosmetic surgery?

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If you don’t own at least one goat or sheep that will teach the pup manners, buy one; it’s worth it if you can find one. If you’re not able to do that, guess who wins big in the motherly discipline department. The time to learn about disciplining a pup is before it arrives. Prepare yourself to spend some time with the pup and teach yourself about a puppy’s concept of discipline. If you can manage to visit a newly whelped litter of about four weeks or older, watch what happens when a pup runs afoul of its mother. The pup screams and cries like death itself is about to visit. Momma growls, snarls, and puts her pup on its back and her mouth on its throat. It doesn’t last long but it is a very effective method to teach pups not to do certain behaviors. You really don’t need to act like you’re going to rip the pup’s throat out with your teeth but the growling and snarling is good. Putting the pup on its back affirms that you’re the boss and putting your hand lightly on its throat will serve that same purpose as teeth. Make sure this only lasts a few seconds, until the pup acknowledges the correction. Please understand we’re talking about young pups only. Most pups will submit easily but any dog, even a young pup, has the potential to contest a claim of the alpha position. If you claim it with an older dog, you’d better be prepared to prove it in no uncertain terms or you may very well have an uncontrollable dog that will need to find an alpha human if it is to lead a productive life around humans.
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post #2 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 05:35 PM
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To be fair, it does work sorta... Well atleast it did when I had to. The husky in my signature was a rescue. And he was a real problem.

We rescued him from a neglectful and abusive home. He did not like people, he did not listen, he was a resource guarder... You name it.

One morning I woke up and came out to say good morning, and he decided I was too close to one of his toys and he lashed out and bit my face. I still have a scar on my nose from it.

While he was attached to my face, I had to put him in a choke hold and proceeded to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with him. Believe me, after that, pack order was clearly defined.

He turned into a great dog. He just needed to know that someone bigger and meaner than him was in charge, and he settled down...

...Then I went to the hospital and got stitches

Anyway, point being is that some rare dogs do need a good ass kicking to settle in and behave. I've never had to do it again, and I certainly did not start the confrontation. But I did finish it, and sometimes that is what it takes to give a dog a chance to learn to be good...

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post #3 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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well that is an "emergency situation" where you have to react.

The article in question is saying to take a perfectly calm puppy and growl and snarl in its face.
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post #4 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 06:44 PM
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I think the people writing this article know more about Guardian dogs than I do, so I would feel out of place commenting on the techniques they use.
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post #5 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 07:23 PM
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Some of the guardian breeds get very serious about their jobs.
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post #6 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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well, the person who referred me to the article (not the writer, but a person who attended the seminar) advocates this for all dogs.

This isn't a popular thing among all trainers of LGDs either, with several people telling her that it was basically a stupid thing to do and a good way to get seriously injured. From what I've been told, LGDs aren't "aggressive" but are bred to be defensive and react to danger.
So why would you take a dog that is bred to defend with its life and put it into what it feels might be a life threatening situation?
From what I was told, the idea was that you instill this massive fear into the young pups so that they will be respectful of the person who did it for their entire life.
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post #7 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
I think the people writing this article know more about Guardian dogs than I do, so I would feel out of place commenting on the techniques they use.
I had to use this method when my dog was a puppy. He was extremely dominant and aggressive. It was very effective. Not every dog needs this but most people have never dealt with such a dog that exhibits these behaviors so they have no idea what it takes to correct and redirect this behavior.

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post #8 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 10:45 PM
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Again, I don't know enough about the breed to question someone that is in the breed.(breed meaning LGD) If its like anything else in dog training, there are many ways to achieve the same results; just depends on your expertise and the right dog. Its like traini9ng with compulsion, some abhor it and others maintain it....either way will work with right person and right dog.
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post #9 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 10:50 PM
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I believe these methods can work for some dogs, while turning others into a wreck. I know if I tried this with Ozzy, it'd break his heart and he'd probably be depressed all the time. Positive reinforcement works just fine with him.

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post #10 of 52 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 10:53 PM
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"Alpha" rolling any dog is recipe for you getting bitten in the face. It simply makes you look like an unstable bully to your dog. There is no scientific proof that this is effective, other than it will terrify your dog. It is very sad that this old school stuff is still being passed around. :-/
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