Can I use a little bit of both? (Positive/Traditional) - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2011, 05:05 AM Thread Starter
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Can I use a little bit of both? (Positive/Traditional)

Hey everyone! I'm so confuse on the subject! It has been a while I have been researching! I want to train my puppy obedience, and Agility. In two weeks I'm going to pick him up. He has never been trained in anything yet, and he does not know how to walk on the leash. I have been reading how it is important that he remains on the left side of me, and allways behind me at all times (please someone give me their two cents). Does he have too or not? I have read in positive reinforcement if the dog tugs you should turn around walk back, and keep on doing it til he seems to know that he should not do it anymore. So what do you guys think? Sience I would like to do Agility with him. I would like him to learn that walking beside me is important, but I do not want him to learn that it allways have be like that. You know what I mean? Sience I can not over exersice him (for his joints sience he is so young), what would be the best way to train him. I know the most important thing to do is to socialize him, teach him to walk on aleash, exersice him mentally (and physically), and train him. Is there step by step rules I should follow?

Sorry if it sounds so confusing! Like I had said I'm so confuse too!

Thanks you!
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2011, 10:32 AM
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The most important thing you can give a puppy is love, exercise, socialization, and PLAY!!!!! In the midst of that the only 'training' I work on are the housebreaking and MY job of managing the environment with baby gates, doors and crates to help with the 'house rules'.

It is NOT important that a puppy remain on the left side of you when walking. In fact, if you are going to do agility (and who isn't ) it's important for your dog to be comfortable on BOTH sides of you!

I see you live in a city (be a bit more helpful if you could be a teeny bit more specific, as in NYC means you are near me!) you'll have to have a leash involved in your walks. But GENERALLY I hate using a leash with puppies and don't need one. When they are young they WANT to stay near us and don't run off (but if you have traffic and street clearly a leash is mandatory).

Positive training with tons of treats/toys/play is my goal with puppies. This woman is doing what I like to think of is my aim


Great if you can find a puppy class/kindergarden. Great way to socialize and wear out our pups. While finding other great people and pups.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...t-puppies.html has more great information






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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2011, 12:34 PM
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No matter what you want to do with your puppy down the road, that have to walk next or behind you is very old school and it wasn't good advice even back in the day.

There is no reason you can't exercise your puppy, just keep it age appropriate and don't push him any further or faster than he wants to go.

I'm not a fan of that turn and walk the other way to prevent pulling. I have never seen it work for any dog with any sort of drive. If you want to try it, no reason not to, but don't be surprised if it doesn't work.

There are no set rules for raising and training your puppy. If you can find a good puppy class, that would be your best bet for some good guidance.

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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2011, 12:38 PM
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Agree with MaggieRoseLee. The best training is that which is done at the right time...not expecting too much from your pup before it is ready.

The "left" side thing is up to you. The idea likely goes all the way back to ancient times when dogs were taken into battles. Most soldiers being right-handed would need that hand on their sword and the dog on the left.

You can train your dog however you wish. If you will compete, then follow the rules of competition (so as not to confuse the dog by changing things all the time).
If you are training "your" companion, then it's your choice.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2011, 12:46 PM
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I train both dogs to "fuss" on the left side. When I use the command "close" this is sort of a wide heel on the left for my male, and the right for my female.

"Training with the Touch" is an excellent book to read
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-31-2011, 06:00 PM
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With a young puppy, if you want a willing partner for agility (or just every day life) it is important to encourage a willing attitude from the start. That means, training should be highly rewarding and fun for your puppy. Your puppy should want to work with you, not work with you because you force them to obey. The "dominance theory" (you need to got through doors first, eat first, make your dog walk behind you, etc) is based on outdated ideas about dog behavior, which were based on very outdated ideas on wolf behavior. Things like loose leash walking and greeting behavior are manners and you should train for what you want the dog to do. However, dogs who pull on lead and dogs who jump up to greet aren't "dominant", they are just dogs doing what they find reinforcing in absence of being taught to do a behavior humans find more desirable. This is the position statement of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior regarding dominance theory: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

I highly recommend Silvia Trkman's site, blog and videos (she's the one in the video posted above). Her training is not in anyway based on being "alpha" to the dog and her dogs are some of the most successful agility dogs in the world. And before someone says that her little PyrSheps are too different from GSDs - have you ever been around PyrSheps? One of the biggest breeders in the country described them to me as "semi-feral" LOL They aren't an easy or docile breed and IME a lot of people who have them don't get the sort of performance out of them consistently that Silvia gets with hers.

Silvia's website (be sure to check out the training section and videos):
LoLaBu Land

And her blog:
LoLaBu Land Experience

And for info about teaching manners, housetraining and socialization, I recommend Dog Star Daily's online Guide to Raising A Puppy: Raising A Puppy | Dog Star Daily

Not only can puppies be exercised but they should be. Exercise is required for normal development of bones and joints. In any study of mammals development, it is found that bones and muscles develop better when the animal has real exercise on a regular basis. Puppies should run and play all they want. They can and should go on walks and hikes with you, although you should be willing to stop and rest whenever the puppy wishes to. Agility prospects should do puppy appropriate obstacles - low boards/contacts depending on age and coordination, walking over a ladder on the ground, tunnels, perch work, appropriate jumps (rule of thumb is under 6 months jumps no higher than wrist, under 15 months jumps no higher than elbow), etc.

Last edited by AgileGSD; 01-31-2011 at 06:07 PM.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-01-2011, 04:20 AM Thread Starter
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Wow! I'm happy to see all the replies!! This makes me so happy!

Quote:
MaggieRoseLee The most important thing you can give a puppy is love, exercise, socialization, and PLAY!!!!! In the midst of that the only 'training' I work on are the housebreaking and MY job of managing the environment with baby gates, doors and crates to help with the 'house rules'.

It is NOT important that a puppy remain on the left side of you when walking. In fact, if you are going to do agility (and who isn't ) it's important for your dog to be comfortable on BOTH sides of you!

I see you live in a city (be a bit more helpful if you could be a teeny bit more specific, as in NYC means you are near me!) you'll have to have a leash involved in your walks. But GENERALLY I hate using a leash with puppies and don't need one. When they are young they WANT to stay near us and don't run off (but if you have traffic and street clearly a leash is mandatory).

Positive training with tons of treats/toys/play is my goal with puppies. This woman is doing what I like to think of is my aim
That is just the cutiest video ever! That puppy is so cute! I live in Rome Italy. I have problems myself to find people to talk with about GSD (language problems), so I'm pretty much on my own. Thats why I am so happy with all the replies! Everyone that I did talk to allways say that the dog should stay behind me, and all this dominance stuff. With the dominace theory it feels like I'm taking some monster instead of a dog. I want a dog that I can trust, and that trusts me 100%. Then there is that show with Ceaser Millian (is that how his name spelled???) that they airing over here. He makes having a dog look like war between owner, and dog. I had mix breeds all my life, and I allways did fine without being so "dominant".

Quote:
AgileGSD With a young puppy, if you want a willing partner for agility (or just every day life) it is important to encourage a willing attitude from the start. That means, training should be highly rewarding and fun for your puppy. Your puppy should want to work with you, not work with you because you force them to obey. The "dominance theory" (you need to got through doors first, eat first, make your dog walk behind you, etc) is based on outdated ideas about dog behavior, which were based on very outdated ideas on wolf behavior. Things like loose leash walking and greeting behavior are manners and you should train for what you want the dog to do. However, dogs who pull on lead and dogs who jump up to greet aren't "dominant", they are just dogs doing what they find reinforcing in absence of being taught to do a behavior humans find more desirable. This is the position statement of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior regarding dominance theory: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

I highly recommend Silvia Trkman's site, blog and videos (she's the one in the video posted above). Her training is not in anyway based on being "alpha" to the dog and her dogs are some of the most successful agility dogs in the world. And before someone says that her little PyrSheps are too different from GSDs - have you ever been around PyrSheps? One of the biggest breeders in the country described them to me as "semi-feral" LOL They aren't an easy or docile breed and IME a lot of people who have them don't get the sort of performance out of them consistently that Silvia gets with hers.

Silvia's website (be sure to check out the training section and videos):
LoLaBu Land

And her blog:
LoLaBu Land Experience

And for info about teaching manners, housetraining and socialization, I recommend Dog Star Daily's online Guide to Raising A Puppy: Raising A Puppy | Dog Star Daily

Not only can puppies be exercised but they should be. Exercise is required for normal development of bones and joints. In any study of mammals development, it is found that bones and muscles develop better when the animal has real exercise on a regular basis. Puppies should run and play all they want. They can and should go on walks and hikes with you, although you should be willing to stop and rest whenever the puppy wishes to. Agility prospects should do puppy appropriate obstacles - low boards/contacts depending on age and coordination, walking over a ladder on the ground, tunnels, perch work, appropriate jumps (rule of thumb is under 6 months jumps no higher than wrist, under 15 months jumps no higher than elbow), etc.
Hey thats the same lady in the video that MaggieRoseLee posted! The site looks so intresting! Everything all you guys are saying is so logical! You guys can not realise how happy you made me!!

When it comes to execise I have been told by my puppy's last owner not to over exercise him, and when it comes to exercise he means walking. I'm a huge walker. I have been a dogsitter, and I would walk dogs 4-5 hours straight in the countryside. So I'm a high energy person myself! Living in the city we unfortunatly have concreate every where. It will take me 30 mins before I can get to a park by bus (I do not have a car. I am not a fan of cars.) I have been told I have to walk him 15 mins at time! So I have been constantly asking myself how in the world am I supposed to socialise him if I can not over walk him. If I knew how to drive, and had a car that would not be a problem. How much exersice do you think would be best for a 5 month old puppy? What about taking him out for swim? Is it safe for him?





Thanks again to all of you!!!!!!!!
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-01-2011, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
Then there is that show with Ceaser Millian (is that how his name spelled???) that they airing over here. He makes having a dog look like war between owner, and dog.
That is the best description I think I've heard of dominance theory!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
Hey thats the same lady in the video that MaggieRoseLee posted! The site looks so intresting! Everything all you guys are saying is so logical! You guys can not realise how happy you made me!!
It makes me happy to see someone so eager to embrace motivational training. I think you'll do great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
When it comes to execise I have been told by my puppy's last owner not to over exercise him, and when it comes to exercise he means walking. I'm a huge walker. I have been a dogsitter, and I would walk dogs 4-5 hours straight in the countryside. So I'm a high energy person myself! Living in the city we unfortunatly have concreate every where. It will take me 30 mins before I can get to a park by bus (I do not have a car. I am not a fan of cars.) I have been told I have to walk him 15 mins at time! So I have been constantly asking myself how in the world am I supposed to socialise him if I can not over walk him. If I knew how to drive, and had a car that would not be a problem. How much exersice do you think would be best for a 5 month old puppy? What about taking him out for swim? Is it safe for him?
There is no reason at all to only walk a 5 month old puppy 15 minutes at a time. Some people have the mistaken idea that stress on joints causes joint problems when in some ways the opposite is true. Lack of proper stress (running, walks, playing) during development is likely to cause problems - bones and muscles were intended to develop under stress. Your 5 month old puppy can walk as long and as far as he's willing to walk, you just need to be willing to take breaks when he gets tired.





Thanks again to all of you!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-01-2011, 09:38 AM
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Cesar Milan comes to peoples home to help when they already have HUGE ISSUES!!!!!! So the stuff he has to 'fix' are things that if you raise your dog properly, you'll never even see! It's like if you went to a high security prison and saw the behaviors people use there to each other, and then say all humans act that way all the time...............not so much.

Tons of good exercise, any place you can have your pup safely off leash is the best (uh, easiest ) for you. All training with a puppy should be fun fun fun and the puppy should think everyone loves it, the world is a happy and wonderful place that YOU are in complete control of!

Tons of treats for training. Love, praise, time, guidance from you.

Did you have a chance to look at this site yet? https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...t-puppies.html really helps us train a puppy correctly.

And this is an example of exercise my 16 m old GSD could do:





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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-01-2011, 10:12 AM
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Cesar Milan is dealing with dogs that have major issues so don't try to mimic whatever he does, however there are some very good lessons to take from him regarding reading your dog, and determining the training that your dog needs. There is also excellent information in his books

There is no one method of training that works across the board or with all dogs. Some dogs do great with purely positive training. Those same dogs could be pushed to higher levels of performance with the correctly placed negative reinforcement. Most dogs need negative reinforcement in certain scenarios. Sometimes extremely harsh corrections are appropriate to address behaviors that *must* stop immediately (running into the street, chewing a power cord). Each dog is different. A skilled trainer isn't someone who can apply a given technique to all dogs effectively. A skilled trainer is someone who can identify the technique that particular dog needs and apply it.

Its also highly dependent on what you are trying to accomplish. Basic obedience can be purely motivational. Tracking *has* to be purely motivational. Tracking doesn't work with compulsion or corrections. Agility can be done with just motivational and positive rewards, as can dock dogs, frisbee dogs, hunting skills, parlor tricks, etc. Training a PPD or schutzhund dog cannot be done with purely motivational training. (these are still very much majority motivational).

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