schutzhund trainging or pet trainging? - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #31 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-23-2010, 09:20 PM
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You have gotten some good advice, just want to jump in on a couple points.
- I understand your concern about the dogs being robots. When you see dogs in a SchH trial, what they do is so amazing. It is difficult to picture them hanging out with their owners at home. I have been training with Bison just over a year now, and even though he is much more obedient at home, he is still the same big goofy boy has always been.
- I think the differences in training between a "pet" and a SchH prospect really depends on what your goals are. My dogs will always be pets first and SchH competitors second. My philosophy for training is a bit different than Wayne's in that I feel that a well bred GSD does not have to be allowed to be a wild man to be able to be involved in SchH. For example, if he has the nerve to bite, me training him to not put teeth on people at home isn't going to stop him from biting on the field. Me teaching him not to jump up on people at home isn't going to prevent him from jumping over jumps. Dogs are very situational in their training. They can compartmentalize to a great extent what happens on the field and what happens at home. I think it is more important the methods that you use to teach them those things and that is where your SchH club can help you make better training choices.

Amy
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post #32 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-23-2010, 09:30 PM
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Along with what Amy posted, the temperament and lines of the dog are huge in what they are showing on the field. Thats why my two females couldn't do it...I had to find a pup that will be biddable and confident enough to go forth with the whole picture.
Now it is up to me to let him shine and excel in what he was bred to do! I don't want to fail him.

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post #33 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-23-2010, 09:42 PM
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From Nike Sentry Dogs(sorry for the all caps, but it's in the original page):

Quote:
SENTRY DOGS, AS WELL AS THEIR M.P. DOG HANDLERS, WERE ASSIGNED TO ALL NIKE HERCULES SITES. THE DOGS WERE USED TO PATROL THE AREA BETWEEN THE LAUNCHER AREA FENCE AND THE EXCLUSION AREA (LAUNCHING AREA) FENCE. THE DOGS WERE PRIMARILY UTILIZED AT NIGHT TO AUGMENT THE SECURITY OF THE SITE. ON AVERAGE, THERE WERE FOUR DOGS PER SITE, ALTHOUGH SITES OVERSEAS TENDED TO HAVE MORE. A DOG WAS ASSIGNED TO ONE HANDLER WHO HAD TO CARE FOR THE DOG IN ADDITION TO PATROLLING WITH IT. THE DOGS WERE PURPOSELY TRAINED TO BE OVERLY AGGRESSIVE AND WERE BASICALLY FRIENDLY TO THEIR HANDLER AND NO ONE ELSE. FOR EXAMPLE, DOGS TRAINED FOR POLICE WORK TODAY LIVE WITH THEIR OFFICER/HANDLER AND ARE BASICALLY FRIENDLY UNTIL COMMANDED TO DO OTHERWISE. SENTRY DOGS WERE NOT THIS WAY. YOU DIDN'T WANT TO GET CLOSE TO ONE OF THESE DOGS. ON OCCASION A DOG WOULD GET LOOSE FROM ITS PEN. WHEN THIS HAPPENED YOU WOULD SEE SOLDIERS SCRAMBLE TO GET TO A SAFE PLACE BECAUSE THAT DOG WOULD ATTACK THEM. IN MOST CASES, WHEN A DOG HANDLER WAS TRANSFERRED HIS DOG WOULD GO WITH HIM. WHEN A DOG HANDLER LEFT THE SERVICE AN ATTEMPT WAS MADE TO INTRODUCE A NEW HANDLER TO THE DOG. IN SOME CASES THE DOG WOULD NOT ACCEPT A NEW HANDLER AND HAD TO BE PUT DOWN. DOGS WOULD BE PUT DOWN WHEN THEY WERE TOO OLD TO WORK
Schutzhund will NOT turn your dog into a sentry dog, thank goodness! It will also NOT turn your dog into a kill-crazy monster, as written about in one of Tom Clancy's books (I can't remember which one, one of the Rainbow Six books I think).

As for using a clicker, about 30% of the handlers I saw in practice at the 2008 WUSV Championship in Ft. Mitchell, Ky were using clickers.

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post #34 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-23-2010, 10:27 PM
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To be honest I haven't yet seen more than a few dogs that will do Schutzhund the same way for more than one person. The Schutzhund aspect of the dog's life is typically controlled by one person, yes. Otherwise it is confusing and unfair to the dog. Schutzhund is not like basic obedience where once a dog knows sit pretty much anyone can say sit. There has to be a very strong bong, a working relationship, a mutual respect between dog and handler. You just can't get that at the same level with two or more people and I don't see how that would come as any surprise. It's like having champion pairs ice skaters being expected to perform at the same caliber regardless of who they are paired with on any given day. No way.



I'm not one of those that let's a "Schutzhund dog" get away with everything just because. I do have high expectations for my dogs as far as manners and that includes ALL my dogs, maybe my SchH dogs are held to an even higher standard because they've had more training and impulse control overall. The difference is that when the dog is young it's more about controlling the environment and setting the dog up for success than correction the dog and squashing the drive. My SchH dog was never allowed to get mouthy on me or treat me like a doormat. He is not allowed to jump on house guests or bite at their clothes for fun. If he had exhibited these behaviors as a puppy, my solution would be exercise him hard before guests come over and then give him a big reward bone in his crate rather than allow him to jump on people or yell at him for doing it. If he mouths at me, I redirect him to a toy and play a game rather than slap his face.
I agree with most of this. My DH and I split our dogs...does that mean that they are absolutely uncontrollable for me if I wanted to take one of his for a walk in the neighborhood?? No. However I will not use his formal commands except in dire emergency I will use their house words instead. I do not ask his dogs to sit or down because I don't need to. They know come, and walk, and off, and crate, and that pretty covers everything I need for us to get along. The reason for this is that for several months (like 8), my puppy does no obedience without reward. And the way I want my dog to do formal commands is specific. In the beginning obedience should be done in drive, so that pretty happy obedience becomes a habit. You want to avoid that average pet training you see with the owner telling the dog to SIT, SIT, SIT...and finally the dog sits. Formal obedience should be FAST and you have to set it up so that your dog learns to want to be fast and correct.

As you train you learn that your dog does not listen to words alone. It responds to body language, tone, environment, and a dozen other cues that you don't even know you give. 2 people do not give the same cues so it's difficult on a beginning dog to work with more than 1 person. Once the dog is older, it can generally transfer much better. Our older dogs would go off with anyone with a treat or a ball and work. As pretty as they do for their handler? No. But still good.

I also do not think SchH dogs need to get away with murder. I have boundaries...but I make sure that my boundaries are NOT counterproductive to what I want from my dog. I want my dog to make body contact with people and not be afraid to plow into them...So I can expect to be jumped on and pushed around a little by my puppy. When he gets older and knows Sit...well then I can ask him to do that instead...but I never want him to have the idea in his head that making physical contact with people is bad. Likewise for the mouthing. Using his mouth with a full hard grip is an admirable quality in a SchH pup. He cannot have a negative association with using his mouth, but I have to channel it to toys. This is a process that takes time. In the meantime I will bleed. This also applies to leash manners. My dog needs to know that it is OK to pull against a collar or a harness because he's going to have to do it in bite work. Can I start teaching him leash manners right away?? Sure. By rewarding him next to me. But what I cannot do is start popping him on the collar to get him to stay with me or using aversive that "stop the pulling". Also don't want to inhibit the dog's instinct to chase. He wants to run down the kids, the cat, the other small dog?? Teach the kids to not run. Manage the situation so that he's never able to give chase, or wait to introduce those situations into his world once he's older and has the self control and obedience to understand that this is not the time or place.

So while I agree that some boundaries are necessary, I think you can see that the initial training of a SchH prospect (at least for me) is not really about livability- all that comes later.

To my mind SchH puppies are terrible house pets. But SchH dogs are the absolute BEST. It's just getting there.

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post #35 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-23-2010, 11:13 PM
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The difference is that when the dog is young it's more about controlling the environment and setting the dog up for success than correction the dog and squashing the drive. My SchH dog was never allowed to get mouthy on me or treat me like a doormat. He is not allowed to jump on house guests or bite at their clothes for fun. If he had exhibited these behaviors as a puppy, my solution would be exercise him hard before guests come over and then give him a big reward bone in his crate rather than allow him to jump on people or yell at him for doing it. If he mouths at me, I redirect him to a toy and play a game rather than slap his face.
Excellent post. When I say I wouldn't scold for this or that, don't interpret that as an out of control animal. As an example, to prevent jumping on guests, I sit or down the dog when she greets someone. If she breaks the sit or down, then she is corrected for that, but not for jumping or meeting new people. A subtle but significant difference, especially to the dog.


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post #36 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-23-2010, 11:30 PM
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No, you mark it with a clicker and reward it with a tug ...
I always get a kick out of your videos. Ike Productions!


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post #37 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-23-2010, 11:32 PM
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To my mind SchH puppies are terrible house pets. But SchH dogs are the absolute BEST. It's just getting there.
That is a million dollar quote, or maybe like the MasterCard commercials....priceless.


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post #38 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-23-2010, 11:46 PM
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I don't know much about working with a puppy being raised to do Schutzhund. Thanks to everyone for sharing their experiences and knowledge. Really interesting stuff.
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post #39 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-24-2010, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
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Excellent post. When I say I wouldn't scold for this or that, don't interpret that as an out of control animal. As an example, to prevent jumping on guests, I sit or down the dog when she greets someone. If she breaks the sit or down, then she is corrected for that, but not for jumping or meeting new people. A subtle but significant difference, especially to the dog.
Maybe we don't think that differently after all. That is what I meant by the training method may differ, but you don't have to let them get away with everything. I very rarely TEACH anything by correcting/scolding/or negative reinforcement. I think that is why SchH was an easy switch for us. I taught Bison to not bite by redirecting and making biting the toy really fun, more fun than biting me. The only negative consequence was that if he persisted in biting after redirecting then I ended the play time. Eventually he learned discipline in the bite and that it is fun when you bite the right thing. In obedience classes that I attended they recommended everything from yipping to holding their mouth shut. The negative associations teach plain biting=bad and I can see how that could create an issue.

I think that the methods that create a negative association with something that you will have to use later is more the issue than training them not to bite, jump, pull... But that is just a newbie opinion, take it for what it is worth.

Amy
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Grizzly vom Buchonia
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