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STILL aggressive, what now?

3K views 24 replies 16 participants last post by  ritacykim 
#1 ·
Our one year old Lizzie has almost finished her private lessons with a trainer and in many ways she is doing much better. We have learned sit, down, stay, drop it, leave it, working on heeling and sitting when stopped. She is now friendly or at least tolerates adults and young adults and even elementary kids.

She still barks and lunges at children and especially dogs. This week we took her to the beach and she immediately saw two little dogs and started her ridiculous act....I admit I lost it with her. I am so tired of rewarding and redirecting and treating and so forth. I had a bag of tennis balls in my hand and I actually popped her with them. She looked shocked and walked on past the dogs. I know, I know....it was wrong. I am just so frustrated.

Later, we took her out into the water and taught her (yes, she didn't know how) to swim. While she was in deep water another dog approached. A big friendly lab. She couldn't do anything because she was so freaked out about being in the water. I went over and petted the dog, praised him and gave him a treat while she watched. I want to see if us approaching other dogs will help her realize they are a good thing when friendly.

The trainer says she is so smart that she figures out ways to get around what we are asking her to do. I don't want to punish but I can tell when she knows what we say and chooses to ignore it. The trainer said that she is so attached to us that we need to leave when she is being bad and that is punishment. True.

Getting frustrated and need some encouragement. I was so jealous to see other families and kids and dogs playing on the beach while we had to stay apart and make sure she didn't react.....ugh!:crazy:

Oh yeah, our last training session was a DISASTER. She went after every dog in Petsmart and barked and scared people. We had to leave. It is like she forgot everything we had worked toward. I know her schedule has been off because of boarding and vacation but this is just so disappointing.:(
 
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#3 ·
The head training instructor at the closest Petsmart. Her name is Alicia and Lizzie loves her. Everything she has told us and has done has made sense. I know that is not the very best situation but we live in a very rural area where trainers are few and far between. I am now trying to find others with GSD who will help us socialize. So far, nothing.
 
#4 ·
There is a good instructor in Atlanta.... its only about a 4 hour drive for you:)
You could always come train with us, but that is still 2+ hours.

If you are interested in driving to Albany, I know a few people there that I could touch base with.

At this point, I am driving 2 hours for schutzhund, 3 hours for herding, and almost 3 hours for agility. Georgia bites:)!
 
#5 ·
This is why I don't use this re-directing, treating method for aggression; it doesn't work. I absolutely do correct a dog for aggression and praise a lot for being good which does work as you saw with your own dog. You will never fix a dog with this problem, but you can manage it.
 
#6 ·
I feel for you Diane, my one year old has some of the same issues and part of that is around 11-months old they can go through what is termed a second fear stage, aka Butthead. At this stage it will seem like your dog has regressed from past training and that he/she has picked up all kinds of neurotic anxious behavior.

I guess it's a hormonal thing but be patient and in a few months it will recede a bit. In the meantime you can check out this great book: Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt, it covers so many things including focus, training self-control, counter-conditioning, desensitization, etc...

Good luck.
 
#7 ·
The biggest thing to keep in mind, is your goal is to have ZERO incidents of craziness. Your goal is NOT to approach other dogs. Every single time you have an episode of craziness, it is reinforced.

I work dog reactive dogs in two phases, at the same time.
Phase one is solid obedience. Sit (and stay!) in heel position, loose leash walking, and quick on leash recalls. This is taught in a strange-things-free-zone.
Phase two is working in the vicinity of other dogs. You must stay below threshhold. Meaning that if your dog alerts, in any form, you are too close. It may be 30 feet away from strangers, or 300 feet.
You should be working those recalls and sits but not requiring anything that the dog does not know and perform well already.

90% of the time, this type of training works and you will have a dog that can be out in public. (Note--not necessarily a dog that can be touched by strangers or play in the dog park).
 
#9 ·
The biggest thing to keep in mind, is your goal is to have ZERO incidents of craziness. Your goal is NOT to approach other dogs. Every single time you have an episode of craziness, it is reinforced.
I absolutely agree with this. Even if it means backtracking on your walk, taking a detour to a safe distance you have to eliminate incidences which only serve to reinfoce this behavior. The easiest means is simply using distance - if you've found your dog reacts to another dog at 20 feet then make sure you keep 30 feet away from another dog.

I work dog reactive dogs in two phases, at the same time.
Phase one is solid obedience. Sit (and stay!) in heel position, loose leash walking, and quick on leash recalls. This is taught in a strange-things-free-zone.
Phase two is working in the vicinity of other dogs. You must stay below threshhold. Meaning that if your dog alerts, in any form, you are too close. It may be 30 feet away from strangers, or 300 feet.
You should be working those recalls and sits but not requiring anything that the dog does not know and perform well already.

90% of the time, this type of training works and you will have a dog that can be out in public. (Note--not necessarily a dog that can be touched by strangers or play in the dog park).
Again I agree, I've found having a consistent and rigorous training regiment helps this situation as your dog learns greater obedience towards you and also it makes it easier for you to grab their focus.

Also, you have to counter-condition and desensitize as gagsd said by working near other dogs. I often drive to a local dog park but I don't go in and I stay outside of it by about 20 feet and just do my training routines with my GSD. Over time your dog gives less attention to other dogs and gives more of their focus back to you and they also have less anxiety about other dogs.

It gets easier but you will have to put a bit of work in but it pays off big time. Good luck.
 
#10 ·
From what you are describing, your dog is reacting from fear. You know that, right?

So if you can help with the fear, and get a more confident and secure pup, you will also see a big decrease in the agression behavior.

Have you read these sites?

Solutions For Reactive Dog Behavior

Great Companions -- Scaredy Dog! reactive and fearful dog behavior problems

http://bethlowell.com/mysterious-be...gressive-or-reactive-dogs-check-your-mindset/

Most of the petsmart trainers I know do well with regular happy dogs, but dogs with issues usually need a trainer with a bit more in their bag of tricks. So to continue to look for someone with SPECIFIC help with reactive and fearful dogs would help.

Also, you purchased the DVD by Turid Rugaas called Calming Signals? Huge help to really see the early signs of stress in your dog and dealing with it properly before your dog reacts.



Amazon.com: Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You: Turid Rugaas: Movies & TV
 
#11 ·
I soooo agree with Mary's suggestions.

It is not an overnite fix, but being calm and setting the dog up to succeed and be comfortable is key.

Good luck it can get frustrating, but pays off in the end:)
 
#13 ·
I have had extremely good luck with "abandonment" training for this sort of issue, specifically with GSDs :)

That said, IME if an owner isn't willing to manage the dog's environment and experiences while the behavior modification is going on, having the dog totally get over the issue is unlikely. By managing the environment and experiences, I mean not putting the dog in situations where they are going to practice the behavior you are trying to modify. So for a dog who is reactive to other dogs, the last thing you want to be doing is taking your dog places where they will be expected to interact with other dogs or be closer to them than they are comfortable with.

Petsmart is probably the worst training scenario for reactive dogs because you have a constant flow of people coming and going with other dogs, who may also be reactive or who aren't being properly managed. Likewise, going to a beach where people regularly take dogs to play isn't helping the behavior either. Every time you take your dog somewhere were she is put into a position that causes her to become reactive, you are pretty much undoing any progress you have made with her and going back to square one.
 
#14 ·
Thanks to all of you for the advice. I plan to try everything. We have made tremendous progress in the last couple of days on heel. She does seem to be going through a "I am just goofy" stage and we will get over that as well. I will look at all of the links, the books, and the CD's and keep trying.
 
#15 ·
I have a reactive dog, who is improving, and want to mention another angle to this. That is, you, the owner. I found that I got frustrated when I thought that my dog "shouldn't" be like this and that it meant I was somehow less of an owner since he was so obstinate -- I was taking it personally.

It helped me when I reframed it to think that he is a dog doing just what he should, based on who he is, including his genetics, his experiences as a puppy and as an adult, and whatever I did or didn't experience with him throughout his life. So, accept, that's who he is right now, he doesn't want to be like that, he doesn't mean anything "personal" by it, and it can change.

And frankly, the fact that he reacts in itself is not really a big deal until a human comes along and places all kind of importance on him NOT being reactive. So we put lots of pressure on ourselves, and on him, to NEVER react because to do so is embarassing, frustrating, disempowering etc. That pressure just makes things worse. In reality it's not a huge thing and it's usually quite solvable, but if not, oh well, there is a great life you can have with your dog while just plain avoiding situations that set him off, if it comes to that (which it probably wont).

This is all just to say that pressure in this situation is a bad thing all around. He doesn't need the pressure and neither do you. So if you try to think about this as a quirk of his, but not something that causes embarassment and frustration, you'll be much better off. I think that's why a lot of trainers (I'll include myself in this since I have trained someone else's dog not to pull) are successful with other people's dogs, because they are not "attached" to the dog and while they want to do well as trainers, whether they succeed or fail is not something they will take personally as some people do when their dogs "misbehave" (put in quotes because they are in fact acting just as they should given their experiences).

Back to the actual training aspect though. What has worked for me is what others have said, keep him under threshold, look at his reactivity as a challenge and not a threat to your relationship, and look forward to taking him to CONTROLLED areas (outside of dog parks work, or maybe even a petsmart parking lot at a distance if you don't have a dog park) and help to keep him comfortable there.

In terms of equipment, I used to really like the Halti because it allowed redirection, but I found that in the event of a reaction, with the Halti, my dog could still fight against me with little consequence (other than his mouth being closed). He could still breath, struggle etc. even with his muzzle under pressure. So I have switched to what Cesar Milan calls a great tool-- I have a simple nylon leash that I loop through itself to make a slip collar of the leash, and I attach it high on the neck, somewhat snug so it stays in place, with a clip holding the tension (the collar itself would never come off because it is actually the leash). Having the leash high on the neck gives great control, so he is much easier to reign in and redirect (by walking the other way and giving some corrections) if he should begin to fixate.

I also think the Halti may have led him to feel more trapped/restrained which can be very frustrating in itself.

Good luck.
 
#17 ·
Your dog is young and it's behavior will or should change as it matures up to 36 months old. My girl is reactive also to dogs and young kids (she also does not like one teenager down the street but in this case I feel the dog is justified LOL). Over time she has improved some but will probably never be the friendly lab that romps through the neighborhood without a worry. There are things that we won't be able to safely do with this dog just because of her breeding.

The last thing you want to have happen is for you to get angry with your dog. This does no one any good. So take a stoic approach and accept the fact that this just may be the way she will be all her life but with work will improve and be able to be managed.

One thing that I have been doing with Ruby on our walks is when approached by strange dogs is I have her do sit stays or down stays until the other dog passes. She is to maintain this without fail. Same with kids on bikes etc. I am trying to get her mind calmer when faced with situations that otherwise cause her stress. After a successful encounter where she does not react she gets a yummy treat.

Another thing I have been doing is to also correct (i.e. punish) if I catch her in a reactive display. Sometimes it's just a command NO or a tap under her jaw or a leash correction. A few nights ago she started barking at the kids next door that were playing on the trampoline. I went up to her as she was barking and gave her a NO with a little smack under her jaw. She stopped it right away. You gotta fight the battle on two fronts.
 
#18 ·
Very insightful thread. I just recently got Elsa a couple of weeks ago and posted about her fear aggression. She's only 4 months old and has issues with barking at everything when we are not in her home environment. Heck she even barks IN her own environment (all week she's been barking at a dead snapping turtle LOL).

I too am in Georgia, Diane, but west of Atlanta and myself am taking the basic course at PetSmart. One I don't want to travel more than 30 minutes (she gets car sick so far) and two even though I'm somewhat near the city there isn't much in my general direction! I too am looking for socialization for my pup, but it sounds like you are further away.

I also felt *bad* I guess because of how she reacts. But I realized, that is how Elsa is right now, and UCD's post is right on for me. The one lady who asked me "if I was attached to my dog yet" really made me mad, but I am attached and I wouldn't have her any other way. I will work with her greatly; I don't want her to lunge at kids, but after all she will be our protector so strange dogs and people will not be hanging out with her. But I also don't want her lunging at everyone/thing either.

I hope you'll keep us all posted on the progress!

Jo
 
#19 ·
I also felt *bad* I guess because of how she reacts. But I realized, that is how Elsa is right now, and UCD's post is right on for me. The one lady who asked me "if I was attached to my dog yet" really made me mad, but I am attached and I wouldn't have her any other way. I will work with her greatly; I don't want her to lunge at kids, but after all she will be our protector so strange dogs and people will not be hanging out with her. But I also don't want her lunging at everyone/thing either.

Jo
Just be careful with that mindset with a puppy. We want to work on our puppies to be comfortable and happy in ALL new situations. That's what is normal and desired in a puppy.

Because if we do that properly with a puppy, we will end up with a happy and CONFIDENT adult dog. A confident and content adult dog will have the presence of mind to be able to analyize a true strange situation more properly. Looking for your guidance and cues. Then acting appropriately rather than over-reacting and becoming a huge problem.

Just having a calm and quiet adult GSD that stares at people they don't know can be EXTREMELY off-putting for them.
 
#22 ·
I got my GSD Roscoe as an adoption when he was just about a year old. He was from the hood of all hoods in Balitimore and was definitly used for protection. When I was first introduced to him by the original owner he jumped up an nipped me in the stomach. Then when we went outside he was barking his head off like crazy at every seedy character that walked down the street. The previous owner did not mistreat him an did a good job with basic obedience for the most part. I thought wow Roscoe is not afraid of anyone...LOL WRONG.

I live in a beach community with a lot of vacationers. I am lucky the beach across the street from house allows dogs all year. However, the cujo act had to go. It was not fun with roscoe barking and pulling at almost every person he saw.

I went to one on one training with him and quickly found out all the barking etc at people was fear agression and my trainer explained if not dealt with can become a huge problem. The first things we worked on was getting roscoe to pay attention to me thru execises like feeding his morning food out of my hand, but not letting him eat until his eyes were locked on mine "look at me" with the food being waved directly under his nose.

Next we worked on building his confidence, and funny how important this is, my confidence as his handler. My trainer explained to me that roscoe can sense my body language to the point that if I am nervous he will bark and act agressive, then he will sense my nervouness and react. I never thought this had any role but after my trainer pointing this out it helped big time, meaning I try to be confident that roscoe wont fail nor myself in social situations.

The tool that helped bigtime was a pinch collar. I have never used one and was actually a little freaked out by it at first based on the way it looked. I kept an open mind and did what my trainer told me to do and got the pinch collar for his second session. My trainer also trains service dogs so I figure she knows a heck of a lot more than me and her dogs are not mistreated so pinch collar here we come. the pinch collar worked like a dream come true with roscoe. It was like power steering. No more pulling, lunging, and almost virtually eliminated 99% of the barking instantly. He yelped only twice since using this collar first when he had it on for the first time and one time very shorty after when he was lunging an barking at a person when I corrected him. Since then no yelps at all. If anyone is thinking of getting a pinch collar and never used one, I would highly suggest having a professional trainer show you how to size one and use one properly.

The next thing we did to build confidence was literally over 50 trips to the local petsmart and hang around the store with me approaching people with "hi I'm John will you pet my dog". LOL I was sick of hi will you pet my dog but the pay off was HUGE. I try to put roscoe in as many social situations as I can to be around people and does great at this point. No more barking no lunging no hackle up. strangers can approach he will let them pet him. He is not overly friendly and all licks and such..I gues he is displaying the aloofness of GSD's.

I got him in December and started training in January. It took till march to beginhaving confidence in his "socialization". I notice now if he is not around people for a week or so...meaning strangers..he slips back a hair...nothing like when I first got him..but backs up a bit. so I make it a priority to get him around people. I can also have him off leashe now with strangers around and full confidence he will not act agressive with barking etc. The other tool the trainer had me get and taught me how to use was an e-collar. I am very confident with Roscoe off leashe with the e-collar to have a form of control. On the dogtra collar Roscoe to responds to a very low setting of like 15..I put it on my arm and it like a a static shock. I barley have to give a correction with the e-collar but it is nice when he chases the frisbee and people walk by just knowing I have some control.

Good Luck
 
#23 ·
The tool that helped bigtime was a pinch collar. I have never used one and was actually a little freaked out by it at first based on the way it looked. I kept an open mind and did what my trainer told me to do and got the pinch collar for his second session. My trainer also trains service dogs so I figure she knows a heck of a lot more than me and her dogs are not mistreated so pinch collar here we come. the pinch collar worked like a dream come true with roscoe. It was like power steering. No more pulling, lunging, and almost virtually eliminated 99% of the barking instantly. He yelped only twice since using this collar first when he had it on for the first time and one time very shorty after when he was lunging an barking at a person when I corrected him. Since then no yelps at all. If anyone is thinking of getting a pinch collar and never used one, I would highly suggest having a professional trainer show you how to size one and use one properly.
You mention "pinch" collar, thats the same thing as a prong collar correct?
 
#25 ·
I had the same problem with my 2 pups!
They used to pull me on the leash, put the leash in their mouth and think they are playing, bark, lunge at children and especially other dogs... So we enrolled them in basic obedince training at Cadence Kennels, and because the course doesn't start again until a few weeks, we paid $60 for a 2 hours private lesson for our 2 dogs and I was simply amazed!
All weekend we had kids on bikes, kids playing with water in the front yards, people walking their dogs and our neighbors escape artist dogs were loose again running around and I was amazed that our 2 dogs DID NOT BARK, LUNGE at anybody or the other dogs! Just kept on walking and stayed calm while 10 kids came running up to pet them.
Our trainer uses the Koehler Method and it's been VERY VERY effective on our dogs.
You can't try to hold on to a big dog thats pulling or lunging and try to entice them with a treat...
And to be a certified trainer at Petco and at Petsmart, all you need to finish is a 4 hour course.
 
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