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post #1 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Question Discipline During Training

I had avoided posting anything about this on here because i figured it would be regarded as inappropriate due to the vast belief on here about positive only reenforcement but then i came accross this quote

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Originally Posted by JKlatsky View Post
Dogs obey commands because they are conditioned to do it for a reward or to avoid a correction.

I have been disciplining Indie for a bit now. she is just under 6 months old and can leave it, sit, lay, stay (very well) shake left or right, roll over, and probably a few more that i am just forgetting. she can do all these commands under moderate distraction with either verbal commands or silent hand commands.

there was a time where i would tell her to do a command and she would sit there looking like she knew what i wanted but just didnt want to and was refusing so i started tapping her on the muzzle not real hard but enough to let her know i was unhappy she wasnt listening to me and almost overnight she started being VERY obediant. i also make a tssss noise when i do this and that has become the new NO and i can use it when loose lease walking when it looks like temptation is about to overcome her.

is this an appropriate training method? my dog is VERY obediant in anything but high distraction environments mostly other dogs, but she only really shows affection in the mornings and evenings.

all of her training is done w/ either fetch or tug unless its a new trick then i use treats to just get the basics down.

how many other people on here use discipline as training tool?
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post #2 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 11:42 AM
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JKlastsky's quote is correct.

In behavioral terms, "reinforcement" (reward) is anything that causes a behavior to increase; "punishment" (correction) is anything that cause a behavior to decrease.

There are four ways to change a dog's behavior:

1. Give him something he wants (positive reinforcement)
2. Take away something he doesn't want (negative reinforcement)
3. Take away something he DOES want (negative punishment)
4. Give him something he doesn't want (positive punishment).

Note that "positive" and negative" mean adding or subtracting something to the dog's environment in this context.

"Punishment" and "negative" are emotionally charged words outside of the context of a formal discussion of the science of behavior, precisely because when done incorrectly, they leave an emotional residue that can adversely impact a training program. If too much "punishment" is used, and with bad timing, your dog may decide not to participate. At that point there is nothing that can be done about it except crank on the force, which isn't good for either the trainer or the dog. I don't think anyone here wants a dog that has to be forced to do something. Training your dog is supposed to be fun!

May I suggest reading Karen Pryor's book Don't Shoot The Dog? It explains all of this in more detail that I should go into here (the post would be too long, "punishing" those who don't like to read long posts ).

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post #3 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hunther's Dad View Post
JKlastsky's quote is correct.

In behavioral terms, "reinforcement" (reward) is anything that causes a behavior to increase; "punishment" (correction) is anything that cause a behavior to decrease.

There are four ways to change a dog's behavior:

1. Give him something he wants (positive reinforcement)
2. Take away something he doesn't want (negative reinforcement)
3. Take away something he DOES want (negative punishment)
4. Give him something he doesn't want (positive punishment).

Note that "positive" and negative" mean adding or subtracting something to the dog's environment in this context.

"Punishment" and "negative" are emotionally charged words outside of the context of a formal discussion of the science of behavior, precisely because when done incorrectly, they leave an emotional residue that can adversely impact a training program. If too much "punishment" is used, and with bad timing, your dog may decide not to participate. At that point there is nothing that can be done about it except crank on the force, which isn't good for either the trainer or the dog. I don't think anyone here wants a dog that has to be forced to do something. Training your dog is supposed to be fun!

May I suggest reading Karen Pryor's book Don't Shoot The Dog? It explains all of this in more detail that I should go into here (the post would be too long, "punishing" those who don't like to read long posts ).
Not quite tracking if you are saying what i am doing is good or bad. after a sessions using this technique i vary rarely have to use it anymore, most of the time i just hold my finger out and she goes on with whatever command i had given her.
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post #4 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 12:15 PM
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what you have to ask yourself and it doesn't matter what others think. It seems as if you are asking alot from a puppy, but that doesn't matter if you the way you are training is motivating to the dog. Does she act scared- tuck tail, ears back, submissive postures? if not if your method is working then keep going, just use some type of reward after she does do what you ask even if you had tap her nose a little. Just remember she is very young so don't go too fast and there will be days that she will act as if she doesn't know any commands- those days just have fun and work on social skills. I hope this helps- by the way what is the end goal with her? pet, working, service? training methods depend on what your end goals are, thanks
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post #5 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacq View Post
I had avoided posting anything about this on here because i figured it would be regarded as inappropriate due to the vast belief on here about positive only reenforcement but then i came accross this quote


there was a time where i would tell her to do a command and she would sit there looking like she knew what i wanted but just didnt want to and was refusing so i started tapping her on the muzzle not real hard but enough to let her know i was unhappy she wasnt listening to me and almost overnight she started being VERY obediant. i also make a tssss noise when i do this and that has become the new NO and i can use it when loose lease walking when it looks like temptation is about to overcome her.

is this an appropriate training method? my dog is VERY obediant in anything but high distraction environments mostly other dogs, but she only really shows affection in the mornings and evenings.
One of the main problems people have with using positive training methods is they don't go to classes or read up on it or 'understand' it. Come When Called — Dog Training — Positive But Not Permissive

Quote:
aim is to help people understand their dogs' developmental, social and mental needs and build a relationship with their animals based on trust and cooperation. In CWC classes, you will learn to train your dog using a reward-based method, commonly called "positive reinforcement training." While this method relies on a clicker and food, it is by no means permissive. The dogs must earn the treats by performing a behavior successfully, and their owners must figure out how best to motivate their dogs with minimal handling.

World-famous animal trainer Bob Bailey likes to say, "The dog is always right," which means the burden of training is always on the trainer. In CWC classes, you will learn lots of ways to "stack the deck" when training – to make learning fun and effective – so your dog makes the right choice and everybody wins.
Are You Being Positive or Just Permissive? | Dog Obedience Training Blog


I have a HUGE problem with you muzzle tapping, great way to end up with a head shy dog that avoids our hands. I want my dog to LOVE being near me and my hands and choose to be near my and my hands so I can always put a leash on if needed.

If your puppy (and you are dealing with a puppy) isn't 'obeying' it's not the positive method that is the problem. It's how you are using the method. This is a 6 month old puppy heeling and it has ONLY been taught with positive training:


I want my dogs to WANT to train and be with me. LOVE to train and be with me. Be JOYOUS to train and be with me.

Not cause they have to.

Not cause I will 'make' them.

Does this relationship building and TEACHING my pups to want to learn take more time than if I just 'make' them obey? YOU BET!!!!!

But is it worth it in the end? YOU BET!

I train agility which ends up all off leash in the end. So we 'have' to teach them to love us and the training or they'll just leave the ring/yard/area as soon as the leash is off. OR slowly crawl thru a course cause they are afraid we will get angry. But THIS is what I want:



And I'm not going to get it by tapping her on the nose.




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post #6 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 12:50 PM
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I did say that. And it is true. What I had in mind was a particular exercise, say for example the Sit. Generally once we have taught the dog the position and we feel confident that they understand it we have 2 ways to try and ensure the goal- quick compliance- a reward or a correction. In way one, you will present the reward work the dog up over the reward and issue the command. Hopefully the dog will eb so eager for the reward that the dog will sit quickly so as to be rewarded quickly. The other option is to say Sit, and issue a correction almost instantly. The idea being that the next time the dog will sit more quickly to avoid the correction.

The question ends up being not so much whether or not what you are doing is correct, but if you understand what you are actually doing, if it meets the goals you have, matches the temperament of your dog, and is effective.

Someone once told me that a dog only has so many corrections in it's lifetime before they become ineffective and stop working. Someone also once explained forced tracking to me and pointed out that once the training was done that there was a window for accomplishing titles where the training would hold. Once the window was gone, you had to go back to the force again. Compulsively trained dogs can be very effective workers and seem to "get" things more quickly, however as a personal observation those dogs do not continue to work at a high level for a long time. I like this article to explain some of the different types of corrections you can give.
Leerburg | The Theory of Corrections in Dog Training

Dogs that are more motivational trained seem to take longer to train, but seem to work better for longer. Motivational dogs generally show more drive for their work. It's harder to mess up your dog. They have been taught to reason out the commands and make choices about obeying. Not to say that there are not still consequences- but in this method you will more often see non-reward as a consequence as opposed to a physical correction.

To me (and i am not opposed to corrections) 6 months is young to be having many physical corrections so I certainly would not overdo it. I also agre with MRL that muzzle tapping can create a head shy dog. Dogs work to avoid corrections- that's why we use them, so what are you going to do when she ducks your hand? Also terming it "discipline" to me gives the wrong impression. Discipline implies that there is some kind of willful behavior going on where they are knowingly being defiant. At that age they are young and you want them to maintain enthusiasm for learning. And this is where your knowledge of your dog and canine behavior comes in. It's not just the compliance to the commands that matters. It's the attitude and how you partner it with reward. So I guess in the end we go back to the beginning and do you think it's good?? For me, I'd give it some more thought.

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Last edited by JKlatsky; 06-02-2010 at 12:54 PM.
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post #7 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
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All good input and is appreciated. she doesnt duck at all and is not shy towards strangers in any way shape or form. brought her to the firehouse and took her off a leash in a sit/stay then told her to go say hi to the other fireman and she sprinted to them. maybe i didnt explain it all that well i dont know, i started out w/ a couple of taps to the muzzle but no just holding my finger out gets to to focus on what the command was. she is a very mellow dog but i use mostly play as a positive reward, i would say i am 99 percent positive w/ the occasional pointing of my finger or touching the muzzle as a correction. for the life of me i cannot remember a single day where she hasnt been very obediant provided the level of distraction. maybe ill try and learn to put a vid on youtube to show her off. she is definatly not showing any lack of determination to train and it seems as if she enjoys it.

i didnt really expect the responce that i got... since it was SO effective and there are no noticable detriments to what i do i just assumed that others out there do the same thing.
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post #8 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Dogs that are more motivational trained seem to take longer to train, but seem to work better for longer. Motivational dogs generally show more drive for their work. It's harder to mess up your dog. They have been taught to reason out the commands and make choices about obeying. Not to say that there are not still consequences- but in this method you will more often see non-reward as a consequence as opposed to a physical correction.
THAT is extremely well put!




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post #9 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacq View Post
.......she doesnt duck at all and is not shy towards strangers in any way shape or form.

i didnt really expect the response that i got... since it was SO effective and there are no noticable detriments to what i do i just assumed that others out there do the same thing.
Of course what you are doing is effective. All our dogs will try to do things right and corrections do work.

If all you want is the end behavior, your method is the one used for the past hundreds of years to train dogs (animals). IT'S THE WAY I TRAINED MY FIRST DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But that was 15 years ago and 3 dogs ago. And now I know better and that dog training (animal training) has really changed and much better. Ya wanna know why?

Cause now classes with the 'new' motivational training are about training US!!!! Punishment (tapping our dogs nose) and corrections are easy no brainers for anyone to use. But positive training methods mean WE need to think and learn about dogs and we need to think and learn what can we do to motivate our dogs so they WANT to listen learn and obey. Rather than HAVE to listen learn and obey.

Figuring out that, the 'getting a dog to want' to willingly learn, listen and obey us is HARD!!!! We have to learn it. It takes time. And the burden is now switched onto our 'plate'. Because once WE learn the new way, it's freaking AMAZING what type of dog we end up with.

So you are 100% right that your way is working (for now). But it's the long term bonding and working relationship that you are giving up in the long term. For a short term goal of 'obedience'.

The positive way really does work. REALLY. It just means that we have to do the work and learn something completely new and not as easy as the corrections.




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"Nothing new can come into your life unless you are grateful for what you already have. ~ "--- Michael Bernhard, gratitude

Last edited by MaggieRoseLee; 06-02-2010 at 02:34 PM.
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post #10 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 02:33 PM
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Another great video!





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Miss Osin Blue Wildhaus NA NAJ NF

"Nothing new can come into your life unless you are grateful for what you already have. ~ "--- Michael Bernhard, gratitude
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