Teaching Polite Greeting Behavior (article) - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 
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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
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Teaching Polite Greeting Behavior (article)

Whole Dog Journal has put a free article up on their website on training your dog to greet people. This is an excellent step by step article by It's Pat Miller, a wonderful positive reinforcement trainer.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/...ly_16027-1.html

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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 11:28 PM
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Re: Teaching Polite Greeting Behavior (article)

i read the article on Polite Greeting. why does the dog only
have to greet politely 8 out of 10 times? if you want your dog to sit
when someone approaches why entice it to jump up for a treat from the person that's approaching the dog? why not teach the dog
to sit or stand without the jumping for the treat?

i'm looking at it like, i want my dog to sit when a stranger approaches but i'm going to let the stranger hold a treat up to their chest so the dog jumps up for the treat before sitting.

i know, who am i to question Pat Miller? i'm looking at cutting
out the jumping up.
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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Teaching Polite Greeting Behavior (article)

We must have read a different article. In the one I read, the nice greeting must happen 8 out of 10 times in order to pass from Level 1 to Level 2 in Miller's dog training class.

And the treat is held high in the air is to teach the dog that they will not get the reward until they are sitting and calm. Therefore, it teaches them NOT to jump up because they realize quickly quickly that behavior gets them nothing.

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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-02-2009, 02:20 AM
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Re: Teaching Polite Greeting Behavior (article)

we read the same article. nice greeting must happen 8 out of 10 times.
i was thinking nice greeting should happen all of the time (10 out of 10).

holding the treat high in the air makes the dog jump for the treat.
i'm asking why make the dog jump for the treat when you want
them to sit or stand. i want you to sit but i'm going to make
you jump up first.

when my dog wanted to jump up during a greeting i would
gently pull him down and say "no jumping". i made sure my dog had lots of people to meet/greet. i invited friends and neighbors
over alot just so my dog would have people to meet
and greet. i had people stand in the driveway, knock on the door, stand on my neighbors lawn and we walk over to them. one of my favorite training/socializing places is in front of the Supermarket
doors. we practiced alot on greeting there.


one of the key steps in training my dog not to jump on people
was not giving him a chance to jump on people. when greeting i made the leash shorter so he couldn't jump up. if he did jump he couldn't go to high. i made sure that everybody that greeted my dog made a big fuss over him. we also practiced greeting off leash.

teaching "no jumping" was rather easy". i also didn't use any treats
in teaching my dog not to jump on people. i didn't use treats to entice him or reward him. his enticement was the people making
a big fuss over him. his reward for not jumping was a lot of praise
and petting.

so, all i'm saying is i didn't entice my dog to jump up by holding a treat in the air when i wanted him on the ground during a greeting.
why make the dog do something you don't want him to do (jumping up) in order to teach him something you want him to do (sit, stand, be calm)???
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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-02-2009, 11:53 AM
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Re: Teaching Polite Greeting Behavior (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted By: doggiedad
i'm looking at it like, i want my dog to sit when a stranger approaches but i'm going to let the stranger hold a treat up to their chest so the dog jumps up for the treat before sitting.

........ i'm looking at cutting out the jumping up
From the article:
"... Have your helper approach and stop just out of leash-range, holding a tasty treat high against her chest."

So the dog is restricted from being able to jump up on the person as they are standing just out of leash range. They are leading the dog to understand that sitting in front of a persongets them what they want.

Not the only way as you pointed out, but one method to teach it. And the 8 out of 10 times? That is a pretty good ratio and it allows a owner to move to the next level, where it sounds like they not only continue with this exercise but raise the bar a bit as they should. Why would you want 100% compliance before moving to the next level of training when dealing with the general pet owner population which is the group this seems to be meant for. Encouraging them to continue with their training is what needs to be accomplished here.
And setting an expectation of 100% simply is not realistic for the general pet population.

I actually agree with doggiedad that I wouldn't train this particular behavior by holding out a visible treat, but it is another approach to do it.

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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-02-2009, 12:25 PM
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Re: Teaching Polite Greeting Behavior (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted By: doggiedadwe read the same article. nice greeting must happen 8 out of 10 times.
i was thinking nice greeting should happen all of the time (10 out of 10).
Eventually, yes. But that doesn't happen in the first training session, it takes some time, some practice, and some generalization to new people/places/situations before the dog becomes reliable. Generally you don't need absolute 100% perfection in any skill before you progress to the next level of class because you're going to continue to work on that skill in the next level, usually under more challenging conditions. The 8 out of 10 times is just the minimum requirement to move on to Level 2. There is no point in increasing difficulty until the dog has mostly mastered a skill at a lower level of difficulty. It sounds like you're deliberately misreading the article for the purpose of arguing against it. As you can see, at each level the criteria is increased:

Quote:
Quote:The polite-greeting skill difficulty increases with each level. For Level 1, the dog must sit for greetings and not jump up in at least 8 out of 10 times as someone approaches. For Level 2, the dog sits for greetings, and the greeter pets the dog on his head or scratches under his chin without the dog jumping up at least 8 out of 10 times. In order to complete Level 3, the dog must be able to walk up to another dog and human, with dogs walking on the outside, further away from each other, human on the inside, closer together, as they approach. Both dogs stop and sit while handlers stop, greet each other, shake hands, and walk on.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: doggiedadone of the key steps in training my dog not to jump on people
was not giving him a chance to jump on people. when greeting i made the leash shorter so he couldn't jump up. if he did jump he couldn't go to high.
The difference between your method and the article is management vs training. By holding your dog on a tight leash which would not allow your dog to jump, you took that choice away from him - he didn't jump because he COULDN'T jump. Because you paired this with lots of reinforcement for not jumping, he learned that it was much better not to jump. But Miller gives the dog the choice and shows him why it's better to CHOOSE not to jump. It's just a difference in training styles, that's all, nothing wrong with either one.

In one of Cassidy's classes there was a horrendous jumper. Lisa, the trainer held a treat up over the dog's head and it jumped up to try and get it over and over and over....then the second it stopped jumping and sat, she marked it and delivered the treat, just like Miller describes. It took just a few minutes for that dog to realize that jumping did not work to get him what he wanted. This part is key:

Quote:
Quote:NOTE: In these exercises, itís important that you wait for your dog to sit of his own volition; do not ask him to sit. You want him to choose to sit without being asked, and the way to achieve that is to simply ignore the behavior you donít want and reward the behavior you do want. If you ask him to sit, he may learn that he should sit for people when you (or they) ask him to, but heís allowed to jump up if you donít ask.

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