ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion! - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

This conversation was started in another thread called "Sit Means Sit Training." It can be found HERE.

As often happens the anti Ecollar folks took that thread completely off topic and a moderator requested that the general Ecollar discussion be taken elsewhere. Acceding to that wise request, I've taken it here.
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post #2 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestLou, I think everyone is probably aware that you have a vested interest in promoting e-collars.
I gave Ecollars the same support for years before I became an Ecollar dealer. You know, or should know this. I've said it several times before. Yet it doesn’t stop you from AGAIN committing this personal attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest and it's important for you to push it so that it succeeds (in whatever way success works for you - maybe only by reputation if not financially).
My reputation is based on my problem solving ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Most of the rest of us do NOT have a vested interest in what we promote
You just wrote that "it's important for [me] to push [the Ecollar] so that it succeeds (in whatever way success works for you – maybe only by reputation if not financially)." YOUR reputation is based on YOUR methods. You have more of a vested interest than I do. LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestWe don't sell training items or get paid for training advice (at least not at this time).
Sorry Melanie you don't get to have it both ways. Either your reputation is important or it's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestAll we can do is continue to promote non-aversive training for dogs as much as possible, saving the aversives for later.
There's ABSOLUTELY no reason to "save the aversives for later." And in fact you don't. You use aversives EVERYWHERE in your training, you just won't admit it. Tell you what, tell us in detail how you teach a sit and I'll show you where the aversives are in your work.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest And I think that when you tell us that you've used shock collars on 3000 dogs, you say it with pride.
Yep. Sure do. That's 3,000 owners of police dogs, SAR dogs and pets who no longer have problems with such things as cat chasing, failing to recall, or disobeying when at a distance. That's 3,000 dogs who are safer because they can easily be controlled when they're headed towards danger. There's no way to count the criminals that the police dogs have found or the lost children or Alzheimer's patients that have been found by the SAR dogs who no longer chase cats or other animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest I see it as appalling and sad.
I see your pushing of the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" as sad and appalling. People get great results when their dogs are young or when no distractions are present. But as those puppies get older or distractions come up, especially if they're unexpected, the training falls apart. We see complaints of this regularly on these forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest
I just can't imagine strapping an e-collar on a new dog twice a week and thinking "yeah, this is great!".
I can and do! So do many others who know how to use an Ecollar properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Negative reinforcement: removing something when the dog responds "correctly", creating the desire in the dog to try to respond correctly in the future. For example, you can press down a stim button on a shock collar and then let it go when the dog sits. The dog learns to sit to avoid the stimulation. [Emphasis added]
If you're going to try and educate the readers please don't give them WRONG information. The pressing down of the button on an Ecollar is POSITIVE PUNISHMENT NOT negative reinforcement. ONLY RELEASING the button in this situation is the negative reinforcement.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Anyway I look at it, regardless of the amount of stimulation you use, shock collar training is an aversive.
You're quite wrong. When the button is released, that's a reinforcement. In any case, pretending that you don't use aversives is misleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Since basic behaviors can be shaped and trained quite quickly and nicely without the use of aversives
Sorry, but you're wrong. They can't. It's impossible to train a dog and NOT use punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest applying aversives later to proof if necessary, I see no need to use a shock collar for basic training. That's my belief, and how I've trained *successfully* for many years.
The truth is that there's no good reason not to use aversives as soon as they will have a training effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest As far as examples of well-trained, "positive-first" dogs, there are an abundance of them out there. Some are doing quite well in higher levels of obedience, agility, even schutzhund.
If your methods were as good as you'd like us to believe people using them would be DOMINATING ALL phases of ALL competition. But they're not.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest I've talked to a lot of these people on a training list I am subscribed to and it's quite impressive hearing how they train most of the behaviors with a minimum of corrections. And their dogs have enthusiasm to die for!
HERE'S a video of an Ecollar trained dog with "enthusiasm to die for."

BTW can someone please point out the "robotic performance" a couple of posters have referred to?

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Our training facility is a "positive first" training facility and we have helped people train their pets and their competition dogs successfully for some 20 years now. And when I used to teach using aversives as a base for training, it wasn't uncommon to have a 50% drop-out rate in classes.
I have a ZERO drop out rate with all of my clients. Perhaps there was something wrong with the way that you were teaching people to train their dogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Then I switched to teaching with positive reinforcement and my classes started having a 100% completion rate, with NO drop-outs. MORE people were willing to stick with the positive training than were willing to stick with the aversive training.
ALMOST ALL of my private clients come from classes like yours. I give a money back guarantee if people, for ANY reason aren't satisfied. I've never had anyone ask. I wonder, did you offer such a guarantee?
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post #3 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Quote:
Originally Posted By: dogmama Years ago, I showed in Gaines. As a newbie, I watched the training rings constantly. There were crammed together in one area of the building. It was mayhem with dogs and handlers in close quarters. Toys were flying and food was in abundance. Not one e-collar. And without exception, these dogs were completely focused on their handlers & ignoring distractions and having FUN.
Somehow I've missed the relevance of this. What you describe is "mayhem." Google definitions shows these meanings (in this context) HAVOC: violent and needless disturbance; a general physical disturbance; a crowd tussle or fight; a STATE OF DISORDER; CHAOS. Do you think this is preferable to having control?

But since you're here and placing emphasis on having FUN … HERE'S ANOTHER dog having plenty of FUN, trained with an Ecollar.

And HERE'S a dog being trained with the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" who's NOT having much FUN. Just look at how much attention the dog is paying to the professional trainer! Just look at how much FUN the dog is having!

It's not, as some would pretend, "all wonder and light."
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post #4 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Quote:
Originally Posted By: lish91883Lou I love reading your posts. Your very diplomatic.
Thanks for the kind words.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: lish91883I find it very hard not to tell certian know it all's which bridge to jump off of.
You ain't the only one, especially when these folks make the same old REDUNDANT arguments we've heard time and time again.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: lish91883 As for that "vested interest" guess I have one too since I'm an E-collar trainer in NJ. LOL
It's just an example of these people grasping at straws. Their arguments hold no water so they go for a personal attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: lish91883 On a serious note, used the right way an E-collar is an extremely gentle method.
Yep. Most of these folks have no idea of how gentle it can be. They imagine "shocking" a dog for misbehavior and if that's all that's done it's a very outmoded use of the tool.
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post #5 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Quote:
Originally Posted By: dogmama
Years ago, I showed in Gaines. As a newbie, I watched the training rings constantly. There were crammed together in one area of the building. It was mayhem with dogs and handlers in close quarters. Toys were flying and food was in abundance. Not one e-collar. And without exception, these dogs were completely focused on their handlers & ignoring distractions and having FUN.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: lish91883But that doesn't mean one wasn't used to train them. I don't thinkg E-collars, prongs, ect aren't allowed to be used in any AKC event.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: dogmamaI'd bet my last dog biscuit that those dogs never saw an e-collar. This was 20 years ago. People who trained using compulsion used the Koehler method.
You're probably right. Twenty years ago the only people using Ecollars were bird and gun dog folks, police dog trainers and those who trained the biting sports. But I still question the relevance of your statements.

Twenty years ago people didn't have computers in their homes. Do you think we should go backwards?
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post #6 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Earlier I wrote,
Quote:
Quote: One DEactivates the Ecollar to reward the dog. And, of course, any other form of rewards that the dogs likes can be used.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: lawhite ok, are you telling me you keep a dog in "discomfort" until it does what you want it to do?

I am just not sure i am understanding this statement
And you probably won't unless you read one of my articles on teaching with the Ecollar. I'd suggest THIS ONE
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post #7 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Quote:
Originally Posted By: dogmamaI didn't say it was better. It sucked. But it was what people did.
That makes it OK? I'm still missing the significance of your comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: dogmama "Cookie trainers" were scorned by Koehler advocates.
With good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: dogmama I had people tell me that when I didn't take the cookie into the ring I would flunk. Ha - fooled them!! My flunks were due to over exuberance - like when my dog retreived the glove from the adjacent ring. (But it was a great retrieve and a straight front!)
I'd not call that a "failure due to over exuberance." I'd call it a failure of control.
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post #8 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 11:58 AM
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Ok, Lou. I'll bite. I went and read the article you linked - the Recall article. May I quote some of it here?
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post #9 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 12:21 PM
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Another e-collar discussion. Yay.

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post #10 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-06-2009, 12:30 PM
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Re: ANOTHER Ecollar Discussion!

Personally, I don't like ecollar training at the moment and don't find it of use to me. But, if someone finds it useful and what they want, more power to them.

You might win more people over by overviewing the benefits of ecollars, training theory, ect - you come off as harsh to those who don't find it beneficial (and to be fair, some of those people are coming off as harsh, but you don't win over those of us on the fence).

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