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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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cesar millan

i have watched the dog whisperer before and have been impressed.why do so many people dislike him? his method seems to work and in a short period of time? victoria stillwell doesnt seem so great anyways. why do people like victoria over cesar?

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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 09:51 PM
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Re: cesar millan

Cesar's the man... where you basing this off of?
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: cesar millan

well i have heard this from friends( who are dog trainers) and from threads from here

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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 10:05 PM
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Re: cesar millan

There are many many great trainers who really dislike Millan, for good reason. His methods are based primarily on force - a tight, choking collar/leash up high on the neck, forcing the dog into compliance, forcing dogs into fearful situations in order to "flood" them into helpless submission, alpha rolling, etc. He does all of this with a captivating grin and a charismatic attitude and people fall for it, even though his techniques border on abuse.

The only things he advocates that are any good are that dogs should be exercised (although not to the point of exhaustion, which is what he sometimes demonstrates) and that dogs need leadership (although leadership can be established through controlling resources like food, toys, etc. instead of force and pain). Other than that, he's the typical "old school" dog trainer who relies primarily on his ability to choke the dog into submission without any true understanding of dog behavior or mentality. He hasn't offered anything to the dog community that is new or is even based on truly knowing dog behavior. Anyone with the physical ability to hurt a dog could train like Millan. Heck, I'm not nearly as strong as him and yet 20 years ago when I first started training, I choked dogs into submission. I didn't know anything but the uneducated public was impressed because dogs listened to me (of course, they were AFRAID of me too). Luckily I matured and evolved past the whole "force the dog into compliance" methods and learned how to understand and work WITH the dog instead of just using brute force.

I haven't seen the Victoria Stilwell show, but have heard it discussed. She's more of a dog behaviorist, with true understanding of how a dog thinks and learns. She doesn't depend on pain and force to push a dog into submission. I think it's likely that they've gone a bit overboard in her show trying to make it flashy and entertaining, but at least she's not choking dogs while smiling into the camera.

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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 10:08 PM
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Re: cesar millan

I can only speak for myself, but I like both, Cesar's show and training methods, much more than Victoria. Cesar's methods are more hands on and physical which I prefer to use, but I think the best training methods really depend on the individual dog. Different strokes for different folks... or dogs.
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 10:13 PM
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Re: cesar millan

I don't like Cesar's methods mainly because the reasoning behind them is flawed and also because the methods he chooses to use have a big potential to backfire.
That and when I have seen him describing a dog's "feelings" what he is describing and what I am reading from the dog's body language do not match, which leads me to assume he either does not know how to read their body language or he is purposefully misinterpreting it.


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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 10:31 PM
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Re: cesar millan

I like watching all trainers - Cesar Millan, Victoria Stillwell, the trainers on DogTown, and so on, and so forth. It's interesting to see how different trainers approach different things.

I find that there are some things I see that I agree with and that I would use; and there are some things I see that I disagree with and would never use on a dog. I try to take away what works in some situations and for some dogs, and leave what I think is a bunch of nonsense. I have not yet found a trainer that I've liked without question and I've not yet found one that had nothing to offer at all.

There are plenty of things I disagree with about Cesar Millan's methods, and I think IliamnasQuest has addressed almost all of them. There's plenty I don't like about Victoria Stillwell, either.

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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 10:52 PM
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Re: cesar millan

Cesar's a clever showman, but his psychological terminology does not jive with the science that behaviorists and ethologists have worked so hard to compile and create over the past 35 years or so, creating a new school of training, which employs those lessons.

So basically it's force or compulsion based training, and thus considered "old school." He floods to overcome fear, another forceful method. When he first came out, the behaviorists protested and implored NGC to can the show, but money talks, so now they bemoan his show sets the mentality of training back a couple or few decades.

Basically, he's an ex-groomer beast master, laughing all the way to the bank, an activity few behaviorists are likely to do. The controversy is not likely to die off anytime soon.

Personally, I think if he wasn't so charming and did not sound like Ricky Ricardo, he'd just be another old school yank and crank "trainer"
struggling to survive.


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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 11:18 PM
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Re: cesar millan

Quote:
Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineI don't like Cesar's methods mainly because the reasoning behind them is flawed and also because the methods he chooses to use have a big potential to backfire.
That and when I have seen him describing a dog's "feelings" what he is describing and what I am reading from the dog's body language do not match, which leads me to assume he either does not know how to read their body language or he is purposefully misinterpreting it.
I agree, I've seen him alpha roll a dog and boast when it stops fighting that it is now 'calm-submissive.' Meanwhile the dog is lying on the floor hyperventilating, eyes bugging out of it's head, mouth pulled back tight, a very fearful expression. Yes, the dog stopped fighting but there's no way you can look at it and say it's calm.

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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 12-27-2008, 11:18 PM
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Re: cesar millan

I just have to hi-jack slightly...this sounds SOOO much like the debates that go on in the horse world (especially dressage). Amazing how similar the training debates are between species.
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