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Working in Drive

7K views 55 replies 15 participants last post by  Tennessee 
#1 ·
Lately, meaning the last week or so, Archer has had zero interest in training. I can maaaybe get one or two tricks out of him before he wanders off in search of a toy. And forget trying to teach him anything new! He wants nothing to do with that. I have tried all kinds of treats, including all the ones that used to be high value to him. I make the sessions as fun as I can, keeping my voice upbeat and animated, having him do tricks he enjoys, throwing some play in with it. Nope. He just wants a toy and does not want to do any work. So I’ve been trying to use toys as the reward. However, he loses his mind when play or a toy is the prize. He whines, paces, won’t focus, and can’t even do commands he’s been doing without fail since he was 10 weeks old. The only two commands he can do when it comes to a toy are “out” and “stay.” That’s it. He often does a bunch of random things, hoping one of them is correct. It’s frustrating for both of us.

Can those much more experienced than I give me some tips on how to get him to work and focus in drive? I’m not sure how to teach him to calm down and think when in the face of a toy. If anyone can point me in the direction of some good books, I’d appreciate it!
 
#2 ·
I had to switch to a back tie to use toys because mine just wanted to grab and run around with them. Before using a toy to train, teach a solid Out. When you say Out or Aus, he should spit out the toy. It sounds like you have the Out already. Never chase him with a toy. I looped a long line around a solid tree then attached the clip to his collar. I set up a Place marker (top of a plastic box) at the end of his reach. I was teaching a distance down. When I said Place which he knew, he lay down on the marker. He got a toy. The reason to back tie was so he could not reach me and so he stayed in one spot. If he ran anywhere else he couldn’t reach me or the toy. I only did it for ten minutes or less each time. Find a toy he loves. It’s best if he is obsessed about it. Gradually, I moved away so he could not reach me at all and said Place. He learned to lie down away from me. Before whenever I said Down, he crept toward me first.

To build drive when he is loose, you must have focus and a solid Out. I shake the toy and say Watch. When I have his full attention, he gets a quick tug on the toy, then and Out. In your case, train Watch for his full attention and quiet. From there, I train other things.
 
#3 ·
How old is he now? When wanting to train for treats, put all toys away, maybe skip a meal and if needed keep a line on him so he can't run off.

Now to address your actual question. When starting with toys, keep everything up and exciting. Usually when I start to introduce toys into my work it's to pick the drive up. I use food for precision, and toys for enthusiasm. First thing is teaching him how to think when the toy is present. So it may not be anything too exciting at first. A sit and eye contact with him quiet, then BAM reward. Then maybe a couple paces of heeling, then BAM reward. Make the toy should just be the vehicle for him to engage with you. So once he has it, play with him. When I first start toy sessions, they are fast paced, short and sweet.

Here is a short video of my first toy obedience session with Winston. For whatever reason, I couldn't get him on treats, so I just went for the toy to get something out of him.
 
#7 ·
How old is he now? When wanting to train for treats, put all toys away, maybe skip a meal and if needed keep a line on him so he can't run off.

Now to address your actual question. When starting with toys, keep everything up and exciting. Usually when I start to introduce toys into my work it's to pick the drive up. I use food for precision, and toys for enthusiasm. First thing is teaching him how to think when the toy is present. So it may not be anything too exciting at first. A sit and eye contact with him quiet, then BAM reward. Then maybe a couple paces of heeling, then BAM reward. Make the toy should just be the vehicle for him to engage with you. So once he has it, play with him. When I first start toy sessions, they are fast paced, short and sweet.

Here is a short video of my first toy obedience session with Winston. For whatever reason, I couldn't get him on treats, so I just went for the toy to get something out of him.
https://youtu.be/vKysLh8wmFI
He just turned 6 months old. I used to use his entire lunch (kibble) to work on training everyday, and he used to be enthusiastic and all about it. He's since stopped being willing to work enthusiastically for kibble, even when he's hungry, so I've switched over to other treats. When I start a training session, all toys get put away, but then all he does is look for a toy and act generally distracted, even on leash.

An example of how I've been attempting to get him to work for a toy is when we play fetch. I used to just let fetch be fetch, but since he stopped being interested in training sessions, I try to get him to sit, down, spin, touch, whatever before I throw the ball. IF he manages to realize that I want a sit, he'll go into a half sit, meaning he's basically hovering over the ground and isn't fully sitting. Same with down. If I move, say anything, practically even blink, he's instantly up out of the half sit or down because he expects me to throw the ball (which I NEVER do). I can't lure him into the position or give him a minor correction because then he just stands up, stares at me, and whines.

He is 100% solid with his "out" command and instantly lets go of things when I ask him to. He knows with fetch to grab the ball and bring it back to my hand before I throw it again. He just gets so excited for me to throw it that he can't listen. If I try to use a tug toy, he gets bored pretty quickly and just wants me to throw that. He has no interest in playing with toys without me and is constantly pushing into me to play, so that isn't an issue. Maybe I'm just going about it wrong and he's confused?
 
#4 ·
When you say toy, what are you using? If you want to learn to train your dog in drive, you need the right toy a leash, and a prong collar. A ball on a string is one of the more common toys used to train a dog in drive and there are many different types of tugs for the same purpose. Your problem will be learning how to use the toy and manage the dog on the leash. If a dog gets into too high of a state of drive, he can't learn very well. That is why it is best to start pups out with food and then go to a toy. There are many ways to use a toy, but the most common is to hold the leash in one hand and a ball on a string in another and hold the string and show the dog the ball and when he tries to strike it, pull it away to one side. It would kind of look like pulling the cord to start a lawn mower, but standing more upright. You can turn as you pull/tease the dog. Give a few misses and then give a quick command such as sit. When you say sit, quickly raise the ball above and behind the dog's head. If he doesn't sit and knows the command, give him a pop on the leash to help him sit and bring him down in drive some. As soon as his butt hits the ground, give the release command and hold the ball out by the string and let him strike and grip the ball. Dogs that don't have a lot of drive will have some trouble gripping the ball on the first try. Play a little tug with him and then him win it and let go, but hold on to the leash. The next goal is to get him to want to engage with you by bringing the toy back to you and play the game again. You will have to teach him to out/let go of the ball while holding the string and you reward an out by commanding him to bite the ball as soon as he lets go. So you need a command for bite. This is something that is not really learned by reading about it. You need to have someone help you or at least, watch a video of it being done because there will many other things going on with your dog that a more experienced person can help you with and each dog is different.
 
#8 ·
Oh, I should mention that I have played with a flirt pole with him, and he's a little maniac! Definitely has great drive for that, but what's funny is that I can get a ton out of him (sit, down, stay, touch, spin, around, through, etc.) before releasing him to chase that, but he won't do the same thing for a ball or an actual tug. I just have to be really careful using a flirt pole with him because he goes after it so hard and I don't want him to hurt himself.
 
#10 ·
Since you have conditioned him to expect to be rewarded by fetching a ball, a ball on a string would probably be better than using a tug. You would kind of be throwing the ball by teasing him with the ball on the string as in the video, yet he wouldn't get to bite (fetch) it until he displays the correct behavior. Only reward correct behavior. At first, you might just see if he will bite the ball without any obedience. Since the dog is from working lines, he should be able and is old enough to start raising the expectations with prong, but first I would get him very interested in the ball on a string. I would also stop throwing anything for him to fetch. You said all toys are put away when you start a training session. I would do the opposite and not let him have access to any toys except when training him on the ball on a string. If he starts to get bored and mouthy and destructive, pull out the ball on a string. Then try to be more structured with a prong and leash. If he knows how to bark on command, teach him to bark for the ball on the string to get the game started. For example, show him the ball, tell him to bark and if he barks, immediately make prey with the ball like in the video. Each dog is different. With some higher drive dogs, more misses build more drive. With dogs that don't have high prey drive, too many misses will lead to coming down in drive because he is not being reinforced enough. I would also do this in new, unfamiliar places. Dogs with good prey drive will not be affected by a new environment and dogs whose prey drive is not as high as you thought, will not play the game. Keep the sessions short and you can always end on teasing the dog up with misses and not letting him win the ball.
 
#11 ·
mycobrarcr,
I am in no way being critical of your training. I'm just pointing out the different philosophies people have in training. You said this dog is from van Leeuwen lines, which are dryer meaning they don't have crazy drive for a toy, but have strong, forward aggression as adults. I know that **** van Leeuwen would never use a toy and wouldn't even start training a dog until he was somewhat mature. This is what works for him. I'm more in line with starting pups early because I think you can teach them how to learn at a very early age which has advantages, as long as they are taught correctly. It is similar to research that shows children can learn a new language much easier than an adult.
 
#12 ·
I agree. I know van Leeuwens don't start their dogs until a year plus. One of the reasons I got Winston is to see what I could do with him raising dogs the way I do, and to challenge myself a bit. He's been doing really well and is a little sponge. I've been doing mostly OB and tracking with him. Touched on some protection foundation, but not much of that yet. Waiting a couple/few more months before we get into that. Interestingly enough I got a second Dutchie out of the same lines. Kind of a long story, but he's 18mo and has nothing on him. Zero training. It's interesting to see how Cy and Winston learn. Winston at 5mo picks up things much faster than Cy at 18mo. I've only had Cy a week, so we are still very much in the bonding phase, but still. Cy's BRN#35006 if you want to look him up.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I lift him by the collar to get him to drop the ball. Basically making him think he's loosing it and to build his drive for it.

I lift him by the tail and skin, to get him used to be manipulated. He's in a higher state of drive and he's play with "Dad", so he's comfortable. So by me touching him all over, picking him up, it helps get him used to it for when a decoy does it later on. Everything is conditioning him for something later. Better for him to see it when playing with me than get freaked out when a decoy does it to him. Normally I'd pick him all the way up, but he's teething and don't want to risk ripping out a tooth.

Edit: I was trying to find a video of me doing with Kimber when she was younger. Couldn't find video, but here is a picture of me doing it with her.
Kimber Skin by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
 
#19 · (Edited)
I like the Gappay ball on a string in the larger size so that the ball won't get stuck in the dog's throat. You can Google them and find plenty of places that sell them.
https://www.hallmarkk9.com/gappayballonstring-large.aspx
These are made of fairly hard rubber, but not to hard. They last forever and little nubs that help the dog keep his grip when he strikes the ball.
 
#20 ·
OP, just a thought, but you said this has only been an issue for like a week? That's not really a long term problem

What if you just let him goof off for a few days and see if he doesn't get bored and look to you to re-engage. If he is asking you to engage vs you pursuing him trying to get him to engage the dynamic might be might better?

Have you done nothing but the most basic like---he glances at you, you mark and start food chase? You're not asking anything of him basically free shaping engagement?
 
#21 ·
I just looked at my calendar, and it has been about two weeks of this now. Time went by fast! I haven't free shaped engagement in quite a while with him. I still have treats in various places around the house and will give him treats for behaviors I like, but I haven't handed him food just for engaging with me. Are you suggesting that might help? I can definitely go back to doing that.

Our training sessions usually consist of working on proofing things he already knows and attempting to learn some new tricks (we're working toward a Trick Dog title, just for fun!). For example, I'll ask him to sit, touch, spin, give him a treat, run a random direction, treat him when he gets to me, ask for a down immediately, treat him for that, run off again, etc. I try to make it as fun as possible, but he really just wants to play with toys. I haven't been able to find a way to teach new behaviors with a toy however. I usually try shaping with a toy because luring with one does not work, but he gets too wound up for it and doesn't seem to understand what behavior I'm actually marking and rewarding for since he's doing so many random things.

If I don't do training sessions with him, I find that he gets extremely restless and whines a lot when out of his crate. He'll also bring me toy after toy in an attempt to get me to play, even if we just played 20 minutes with the flirt pole or a good game of fetch. Playing with toys doesn't seem to tire him at all. If it weren't for his restlessness and general discontent, I would let him have some time off from training. It's a weird balance.
 
#24 ·
Keep in mind that pups go through maturity phases.. Drive phases too.. So he may be having hormones kicking in hard now that distract him from the focus he had earlier.. It should come back, especially if he has been taught to learn... Keep lessons short and engaging /exciting.. Nothing new until you see a steadiness.. Or randomly offer something new and see if he latches onto it... If so, you will know his phase has probably passed and you can back chain or clean up anything he got rusty on
 
#25 ·
Well, my 2c is...the dog is restless, I'd want to take him for an offleash sniff walk somewhere more often than he has been. Seems to have a settling effect on dogs

Separately:

and you can't get him to focus or desire to work obedience with you for food. So I would take him out with high value food and see if you can get anywhere with a short engagement only session. If so, then start there and see if you could build desire to work for food.

Have you tried any ellis videos for training with food? I was able to increase my dog's desire to work for food a lot by changing the technique of how I was using food.
 
#31 ·
adora155,
The goal is to build frustration in your dog because then you are building drive. You need to have the dog on a prong collar and a leash and correct him if he bites you. The other part is there is a skill set in knowing how to use a toy. I wouldn't suggest a flirt pole. A ball on a string would be better, but you have to know how to use them. It is sort of tease with a miss, tease, tease, sit/down/heel, etc. reward with a bite to the toy while you are holding it and then play some tug, out the dog, repeat. You can use the flirt pole simply to build drive and interest in a prey object with no obedience, but I would tie the dog out and again, there is a skill in using any training tool.
 
#33 ·
Just to confuse people, there are pitfalls to this approach in training a dog for competition obedience. It is more ideal to have a dog with a genetically high level or prey/play drive. The problem with putting so much movement into a toy to build drive, is that when you fade the toy and actually trial, it is not uncommon for the dog to come down in drive quickly because they have become so dependent on a lot of prey movement with the toy. The same is true in protection sports where inexperienced decoys put a lot of prey movement in prey objects early on to get the pup or dog to bite the prey. They are essentially "begging" the dog to bite and this creates problems later because that is not the picture the dog will see in competition.
 
#35 ·
IMO, training in drive gives you more accurate, faster and more reliable obedience. But you need the right dog and have to know what you are doing. Initially she was saying someone told her, her dog was dominant because the dog waited four seconds to follow a command. I was just giving suggestions to get quicker obedience. Her dog looks pretty calm. Manners is anthropomorphizing. The dog either doesn't know certain commands, is being disobedient, hasn't been taught boundaries, or is slow to obey due to the way he has been trained with temperament being a factor.
 
#37 ·
Manners has different definitions, but typically refers to customs, habits or a person's way of behaving toward other people. My point is that a dog doesn't need "manners" because dogs don't know what manners are. They simply need to know what behavior is acceptable and not acceptable to the handler. Manners infers politeness and a choice. Teaching that behaviors in a dog are unacceptable punishes the wrong choice and dogs are not polite or impolite, they are just being dogs.
 
#42 ·
Out and stay are basically what you need to teach him to cap that drive. Tug-out-pause(stay) bite on command. That pause is where you teach the focus and control by lengthening the time of control before the ok to bite. If he wants toys like you say, the flirt pole is useless at this point, probably a little counter productive to what you want. Something else that may help with him settling at home, I don't do any training or playing at home. I play with and train with mine is as many different places as possible, but at home its just relax and hang out. Training through play creates an expectation in them, that anticipation you're seeing with him. Thats fun at the park, but a pain at home.
 
#45 · (Edited)
That's a really good point. I have strict house rules-- basically inside I expect calm dogs. All balls are checked at the door because they're a little obsessive about them. They have a bunch of indoor toys that they are not obsessive about that live in the toy basket and they can have any time but no balls or tugs.

Indoors basically no running, no rowdy play, and little lay down bitey face is okay.

I do do some service dog training in the house but that's all mellow training and doesn't conflict with calm indoor house rules.
 
#44 ·
Puppy classes intentionally teach “house manners” and call it that. It’s an accepted term in puppy training. That is to distinguish those skills from obedience. So a dog in obedience class will learn Down and Stay, while in puppy class they will learn to lie quietly next to their owners at mealtime. It is essentially the same skill but in a useful household setting rather than on a training field.
 
#52 ·
I should have said you should not be concerned with "hurting" a dog's feelings in certain situations. I did say corrections should be appropriate for a dog's handler hardness. You can "hurt" some dog's feeling with a stern "no" and others need a sharp correction. In a natural setting, pack members are put in their place and parents do not coddle their offspring.
 
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