Engagement Help - I am probably boring (and unfit!) - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 23Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 12:46 PM
Elite Member
 
Heartandsoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,544
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogma13 View Post
@GSDchoice your story reminds me of something that happened with my son several times.When he would get off of the school bus down the road from us a young girl who lived close to the bus stop would accidentally let the family dog slip out of her front door.The young lab would tear around happily,completely ignoring the young lady's calls and attempts at capture.My son wouldn't say a word,he just started running around in circles and zigzags.The lab was delighted with this game and would run around next to him.When he got close enough my son would grab his collar and walk the rascal home safely.
Your son was pretty creatively intuitive.

"If you can't see his soul when you look in his eyes, then you need a seeing-eye dog"
Heartandsoul is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 01:40 PM
Crowned Member
 
Sabis mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 4,268
I see a couple of clear examples of dogs desperately trying to have fun, and their humans being oblivious.
Keep away is a good game, if you put a cue to start and stop it.
Some owners aren't ok with it and that's fine as well, but if you watch dogs playing with each other this is a really natural behavior.
My Dane led a group of intoxicated guys on a merry romp when they opened the door to quickly. I sat in the car laughing so hard I had a stomach ache. When I decided they had been taunted long enough I simply flashed the headlights and she trotted right over. I still chuckle at the memory of them tripping, crashing into each other and sliding around in the slush while she vaulted over them and various hedges, dodged around them and woofed to encourage them when they slowed down or fell. The huge grin and lolling tongue were proof enough that she had a great time.
Heartandsoul likes this.
Sabis mom is online now  
post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 08:15 PM
Knighted Member
 
tim_s_adams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabis mom View Post
I see a couple of clear examples of dogs desperately trying to have fun, and their humans being oblivious.
Keep away is a good game, if you put a cue to start and stop it.
Some owners aren't ok with it and that's fine as well, but if you watch dogs playing with each other this is a really natural behavior.
My Dane led a group of intoxicated guys on a merry romp when they opened the door to quickly. I sat in the car laughing so hard I had a stomach ache. When I decided they had been taunted long enough I simply flashed the headlights and she trotted right over. I still chuckle at the memory of them tripping, crashing into each other and sliding around in the slush while she vaulted over them and various hedges, dodged around them and woofed to encourage them when they slowed down or fell. The huge grin and lolling tongue were proof enough that she had a great time.
^This all day long! I got a good laugh from the mental imagery!

To me part of being fair is saying if you play my game I'll play yours too! So I always have played tag with every dog I've owned. Part of keeping a dog or puppy engaged is giving them a reason to be interested. Your interactions have to be fun for them, especially initially. There's no distinction in a dog's (or a human child's for that matter!) mind as to what is and is not learning. There is no, now we're training now we're not, every interaction is a learning experience! Of course you can and likely will increase your demands for quickness or difficulty, or stricter obedience around increasing distractions over time, but OP think in terms of motivation. Why would your dog "want" to do something you want versus something he wants?

Make it fun, keep it light, be insistent when needed, but not angry or urgent or get frustrated when they don't get it right away. Learn your dog, so they can learn from you more effectively.

And by all means, take time to laugh and enjoy the process!
Sabis mom likes this.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. Mark Twain

Tim
tim_s_adams is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 09:01 AM
Master Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 674
"When your dog is playing keep away, that is actually the opposite of engagement." Chip


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabis mom View Post
I have to respectfully disagree. Both Shadow and Bud and to a lesser extent Lex were actively TRYING to engage me with this game. It was their idea of fun. It was a reward. I use "tag" as a reward for Shadow. That's why I specified that you need to be the one to start and stop it. She is focused and driven when playing, tuned to my every move or twitch and having fun.
Maybe a different definition but when I think of engagement I think of a dog that is focused and working to participate with the owner.

Engagement to me is the dog pushing you to train him, like bringing the toy back to you voluntarily to play tug or do some obedience to win the reward again. Playing keep away is more about possessiveness and the dog not pushing you to train him and giving you the finger. It is more about independence than engagement.
Chip Blasiole is offline  
post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 11:56 AM
Elite Member
 
Heartandsoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,544
@Chip Blasiole this is a sincerely asked question. Have you never played a game of chase where your dog started the game but you were able right in the middle of chasing him, turn it around so that he was exuberantly chasing you?

With my guy, and I don't use the game habitually to do anything other than for mutual fun, or a stress reliever, or just giving him and me a break from routine. I have found that the chase game if manipulated to include my boundaries and an ending signal is a wonderful stress relief game that adds a bit of short cardio.

I have used it to rope my guy in, change his attitude about what I need from him, changed my attitude about what I have to get done with him. I only have my one boy from which my experiences of the game come from but in a handful of chase/tag/keepaway (whatever you want to call it) it has been a powerfully, mutually experienced positive game for both of us once he understood those boundaries. Plus, I do set it up so that I am successful in the game also, i.e. On the deck so I can catch up to tag him and run away. Or in the yard, a stop quickly with the command indicating time to tug or whatever.

In my newbie nutty thought process based only as I have explained,chasing and running away from is innate in them and harnessing it is done all the time for obedience and sports training purposes. The difference is is that for obedience and sports, it is just the use of the very beginning of the chase or run away drive being utilized. The chase game allows for full out use.
Sabis mom and tim_s_adams like this.

"If you can't see his soul when you look in his eyes, then you need a seeing-eye dog"
Heartandsoul is offline  
post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 12:27 PM
Master Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 674
I have never played a game of chase with my dogs. I want my dog to come to me.
Chip Blasiole is offline  
post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 12:32 PM
Elite Member
 
Heartandsoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,544
I was just wondering and thank you for answering.

"If you can't see his soul when you look in his eyes, then you need a seeing-eye dog"
Heartandsoul is offline  
post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 10:31 AM
Master Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 674
The other issue other than imprinting your dog to run from you is that in most protections sports, the obedience phase has some type of retrieval exercise and playing keep away would just interfere with teaching that exercise. If the dog is going to be strictly a pet, it is probably not much of an issue.
Heartandsoul likes this.
Chip Blasiole is offline  
post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 11:38 AM
No Stinkin' Leashes Moderator
 
Cassidy's Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 31,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSDchoice View Post
This week my dog and I were walking up a street and a big pup (English Sheepdog?) was let out of the front door offleash into the yard (potty break, I guess). She dashed towards us. The young girl behind her grabbed her collar but couldn't hold her, and I watched in horror as the young girl was dragged for several yards on her stomach before letting go! The pup reached us, and our dogs greeted. Then the pup kept following us up the street, so I stopped walking! The mom then came out and tried to get her.

Every time the owner reached for her collar, she dodged away and ran.

Randomly holding or even just touching the collar, then marking and rewarding is a great way to desensitize a young dog to collar grabs and reframe it as a positive thing. That's one thing we've always worked on in puppy class. I have a photo of Halo being used by the instructor as the demo dog for collar grabs in her puppy class. Make a game out of it. Once your dog is fine with you holding their collar, you can build that into your recall, where the dog runs to you and you grab the collar before rewarding, and then immediately release.



In my sport of flyball, one of the very first things we work on, and one of the most important, are restrained recalls. Someone restrains your dog while you rev it up and run away. You can use food or toys, whatever your dog loves most. Let them see that you have yummy treats or wave a tug toy in their face and GO! The other person releases the dog, who runs to you enthusiastically, and you throw a big party when s/he gets to you.



I always want my dogs to find chasing me more fun than me chasing them. I do think that a game like Heartandsoul describes with some mutual chasing is probably fine for most dogs, but I'd want the majority of the chasing to be of me by the dog.
Heartandsoul likes this.

-Debbie-
Cava 1/6/18 *** Keefer 8/25/05
Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18 ~ You left pawprints on our hearts
Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08 ~ Forever would have been too short
Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
Cassidy's Mom is offline  
post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 12:12 PM
Elite Member
 
Heartandsoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,544
This thread is a really good one conversationally speaking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Blasiole View Post
The other issue other than imprinting your dog to run from you is that in most protections sports, the obedience phase has some type of retrieval exercise and playing keep away would just interfere with teaching that exercise. If the dog is going to be strictly a pet, it is probably not much of an issue.
Good point/case in point concerning goals and sports and my own experience that I didn't even consider., I use to play a game called "kill the box" and played it a lot where I would place something in a box. Close it up and let my guy have at it. Did this for years until I found the sport of NoseWorks. They use a lot of boxes and they don't like when the boxes are destroyed. I did have to give up playing that game and do some damage control exercises to teach him not to kill the box. He is pretty situationally minded i.e. Work vs play but a box is a box is a box and I didn't want "oops forgot slip ups"
Cassidy's Mom likes this.

"If you can't see his soul when you look in his eyes, then you need a seeing-eye dog"
Heartandsoul is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in













Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome