Crate trained puppy back to whining - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 01:13 AM Thread Starter
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Crate trained puppy back to whining

I've had my pup since 8.5wks and now she's 13wks. I've had her crated and she was usually fine. During the day, she would whine for no longer than a minute, then calm down and take a nap. At night, after taking her out to potty, she didn't put up a fight and would lay down and go back to sleep

I've been struggling with potty training techniques, and the last 2wks have gone back to more crate time. She's been fine with it

Starting Wed night and really bad Thurs and today, she will just whine and pace and bark in her crate. She gets to the point where she is quickly bored of the toys and starts going after her tail and stomps around

I have no idea where this behavior came from since she'd be fine with it for weeks. At night though, she will just go right in after a midnight potty break

Anyone have any ideas? Is frustration setting in? It's getting very aggravating hearing her go on
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 07:25 AM
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How much physical and mental stimulation is she getting outside of her crate? I don't like to over do exercise with growing pups, but you need to balance more crate time with enough physical and mental stimulation to make crating successful. Tail chasing would worry me since it borders on an obsessive/self harming behavior. I like to give my pups a food item to chew like a bully stick or frozen stuffed kong.

Have you had her checked for a UTI?
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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I've started working more on training sit-down-stand and just started on stay and waiting for ME to let her out of her crate (the door doesn't dismiss her, I do). I really need to find more things to do with her. Problem is right now I can't really do more than 2mins of training at a time because she then just gives up and would rather do something else

She only has the living/ dining room to play. We do play some tug and a little fetch. She will do a few laps around. She'll play with her chew and squeaky toys. I freeze a Kong for her and she usually gets that at night to get her calmed down for bedtime

At least 1ce a week (we try for 2ce) we go to my in laws to let her play with their dogs and run around

I have 2 more wks before her final shots, so she only goes outside to go to the bathroom (condo style house, so no backyard)

My mother in law suggested she might finally have started teething and that could cause them to go bonkers

Vet says no UTI. We did get her some antibiotics for a little discharge she's had

And I agree, I don't like the tail chasing at all. Funny the first few times, but knew that it could become a possible problem
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 12:44 PM
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Sounds like she's bored.Is there anywhere outside you can take her where there hasn't been a lot of 'dog traffic' so she can sniff around,explore,and do doggy things?

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 04:06 PM
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I am fortunate to live on 14 acres so off leash walks are a daily part of my puppy routine and really help burn off energy. If that weren't an option I'd likely focus on not so much specific skills like sit, down, stay, but on bonding and engagement and teaching my puppy that training with me is very fun and rewarding, and also house rules. Nose Work is easy to do indoors, as is body awareness, Crate Games, Hide and Seek. I don't do a lot of really high energy games, like fetch or intense tugging, since I want indoors to be a place to chill not get amped up and run around full speed. Zoomies and frantic behavior may be cute in a puppy, but not so much when they are 6-8 months and crashing through the house at full speed. Then you end up scolding and they are confused because just a couple months ago it was an okay behavior, and you become someone they can't trust to be fair and consistent.

I agree with dogma13, try to find some new places to go and get some exposure.

If she is opting out of a training session after two minutes either that is as long as she can handle right now or it isn't rewarding enough to keep her engaged. At this age training should be very fun not like a drill. Lots of reinforcement and play and just her enjoying herself, and you enjoying it to. Quit with her wanting to keep going. If you stop after she checks out then that is where you start at the next session. How one session ends is how the next begins. If you are being taught something and your teacher ends the lesson when your eyes are glazed over, you will not come to the next lesson raring to go vs. if the teacher ends a session with you engaged in the lesson and wanting more, then you come to the next session eager to learn. It is very easy to get into to a just once more mindset and push a puppy to far. It's not a big deal unless it becomes a pattern and your puppy starts to form and association that training is not fun.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 08:36 PM
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My Puppy enjoyed playing with a flirt pole at that age. We benefited from having a fenced in back yard but if you got a really LONG pole you might be able to manage to run your pup in circles while keeping the leash out of the way.. Somewhere along the way we stopped playing the flirt pole.. I think when he figured out how to play 2 ball fetch.

In My experience, we need to get our puppy plenty of exercise. Otherwise he literally runs laps around our house bouncing off walls, bumping recliners and couches out of place.. We're pretty good about that and still crate our pup whenever we want too with no issues. My wife often gives a treat when he goes to his crate upon command.. he sees her going for a treat and runs to the crate before she can even say it.. lolz.. I love these dogs.

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogma13 View Post
Sounds like she's bored.Is there anywhere outside you can take her where there hasn't been a lot of 'dog traffic' so she can sniff around,explore,and do doggy things?
We live near a large park and a very popular hiking trail. Dogs everywhere. I don't feel comfortable taking her anywhere unless it's a family member's backyard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bramble View Post
I am fortunate to live on 14 acres so off leash walks are a daily part of my puppy routine and really help burn off energy. If that weren't an option I'd likely focus on not so much specific skills like sit, down, stay, but on bonding and engagement and teaching my puppy that training with me is very fun and rewarding, and also house rules. Nose Work is easy to do indoors, as is body awareness, Crate Games, Hide and Seek. I don't do a lot of really high energy games, like fetch or intense tugging, since I want indoors to be a place to chill not get amped up and run around full speed. Zoomies and frantic behavior may be cute in a puppy, but not so much when they are 6-8 months and crashing through the house at full speed. Then you end up scolding and they are confused because just a couple months ago it was an okay behavior, and you become someone they can't trust to be fair and consistent.
I've started doing targeting, but she uses her whole mouth to try to get the treat rather than liking or nibbles

I'll need to look into some good puppy games. Any good links to point me toward or advice? Maybe I'm just not engaging her enough to make it fun and rewarding for her

And are you saying to stop Puppy Races from happening?

Quote:
If she is opting out of a training session after two minutes either that is as long as she can handle right now or it isn't rewarding enough to keep her engaged. At this age training should be very fun not like a drill. Lots of reinforcement and play and just her enjoying herself, and you enjoying it to. Quit with her wanting to keep going. If you stop after she checks out then that is where you start at the next session. How one session ends is how the next begins. If you are being taught something and your teacher ends the lesson when your eyes are glazed over, you will not come to the next lesson raring to go vs. if the teacher ends a session with you engaged in the lesson and wanting more, then you come to the next session eager to learn. It is very easy to get into to a just once more mindset and push a puppy to far. It's not a big deal unless it becomes a pattern and your puppy starts to form and association that training is not fun.
Yes, my second session ended with her because I went too long. The third session I only did about a min or 2 and we were able to leave with her still engaged. She did seem like she enjoyed it. After I gave her lots of praise and we played some tug

Quote:
Originally Posted by stepkau View Post
In My experience, we need to get our puppy plenty of exercise. Otherwise he literally runs laps around our house bouncing off walls, bumping recliners and couches out of place.. We're pretty good about that and still crate our pup whenever we want too with no issues. My wife often gives a treat when he goes to his crate upon command.. he sees her going for a treat and runs to the crate before she can even say it.. lolz.. I love these dogs.
I've been using "crate" and she goes in and sits before getting a treat. She's doing ok at it

Last edited by Armistice; 11-18-2017 at 08:53 PM.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-19-2017, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistice View Post

I've started doing targeting, but she uses her whole mouth to try to get the treat rather than liking or nibbles

I'll need to look into some good puppy games. Any good links to point me toward or advice? Maybe I'm just not engaging her enough to make it fun and rewarding for her

And are you saying to stop Puppy Races from happening?
Is your issue her targeting with her mouth open or is her mouth just open when taking the the treat? If your issue is how to takes the treat then teach that separately from the targeting. I always deliver a reward from the flat of my hand, never finger tips since that will get you bit when a dog is aroused.

Hmmm most of my initial learning was from books, I feel like if someone took the time to actually write and have a book published they are more likely to know what they are doing. Anyone with a computer can publish and online article so it can be harder to find good training.

A couple books I like are Control Unleash The Puppy Program by Leslie McDevitt. It covers training theory and behavior, and good life skill behaviors, not so much obedience skills, but there is a lot of very good info if you are new to training. The Focused Puppy is another one, aimed more at performance puppies, but is covers a lot of the basic behaviors and how to train them. It also breaks behaviors up by age so behaviors build on top of one another.

Some online blogs I like. All of these are written by dog trainers/competitors since I feel like if someone competes with their dog(s) then they really are testing their training and if it works.

https://wonderpupstraining.com/articles/
Articles | The Collared Scholar
Susan Garrett Agility Training
Puppy Training ? Reward Based Dog Training


I personally don't allow wild behavior in the house. That's my house rule because I want my dog to be fairly relaxed and calm in the house. Outside they can run around like hooligans, but inside I don't want that sort of chaos. You have to decide what your indoor criteria is and be clear and consistent. If you are okay with a full grown shepherd running through the house at full speed that's your call not mine


[quote]
Yes, my second session ended with her because I went too long. The third session I only did about a min or 2 and we were able to leave with her still engaged. She did seem like she enjoyed it. After I gave her lots of praise and we played some tug[QUOTE]

I tend to reward heavily with puppies. I don't make them wait a long time between reinforcement. Puppies have short attention span and little to no reward history for behaviors other than this feels good so I will do it. I mix in play with training, not just at the end since that can create a mind set of "do this less fun stuff then you can play tug when we are done". I may reinforce a behavior for a couple reps then break off and tug, then go back to the behavior reinforce a few more reps, then break off and tug.


Quote:
I've been using "crate" and she goes in and sits before getting a treat. She's doing ok at it
I use Susan Garrett's Crate Games DVD to teach crate manners like go into the crate willingly and with enthusiasm, sit when I open the door, and don't leave until I release you, allow with some impulse control. I can get the basics down in one session. When I need to crate my puppy I always scatter a small handful of treat in the crate after they go in. This makes sure the crate remains a valuable place to be and if I am leaving the room they are too busy to notice, and when they do the moment is passed. I also always tend to give my pups something to chew on if they will be crated for a bit. Preventing unwanted behaviors is much easier for me than having to spend time fixing them. Giving a puppy a bully stick or stuffed kong is an easy management tool. If they never start a behavior I don't have to work out how to stop it.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-19-2017, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bramble View Post
Is your issue her targeting with her mouth open or is her mouth just open when taking the the treat? If your issue is how to takes the treat then teach that separately from the targeting. I always deliver a reward from the flat of my hand, never finger tips since that will get you bit when a dog is aroused.
Targeting with her mouth open. I've always given treats from the flat of my hand. Not sure how to train to target with her nose and THEN take the treat

Quote:
A couple books I like are Control Unleash The Puppy Program by Leslie McDevitt. It covers training theory and behavior, and good life skill behaviors, not so much obedience skills, but there is a lot of very good info if you are new to training. The Focused Puppy is another one, aimed more at performance puppies, but is covers a lot of the basic behaviors and how to train them. It also breaks behaviors up by age so behaviors build on top of one another.

Some online blogs I like. All of these are written by dog trainers/competitors since I feel like if someone competes with their dog(s) then they really are testing their training and if it works.

https://wonderpupstraining.com/articles/
Articles | The Collared Scholar
Susan Garrett Agility Training
Puppy Training ? Reward Based Dog Training
I should look into some of these

Quote:
I personally don't allow wild behavior in the house. That's my house rule because I want my dog to be fairly relaxed and calm in the house. Outside they can run around like hooligans, but inside I don't want that sort of chaos. You have to decide what your indoor criteria is and be clear and consistent. If you are okay with a full grown shepherd running through the house at full speed that's your call not mine
I'm ok with some, but I really don't feel like having Puppy Races. Guess best I can do is to grab her then redirect with something more calm. Maybe this will fix itself once I'm able to go outside after she's fully vaccinated. She'll be able to run and play and then back at home she'll be too pooped for Puppy Races

Quote:
I tend to reward heavily with puppies. I don't make them wait a long time between reinforcement. Puppies have short attention span and little to no reward history for behaviors other than this feels good so I will do it. I mix in play with training, not just at the end since that can create a mind set of "do this less fun stuff then you can play tug when we are done". I may reinforce a behavior for a couple reps then break off and tug, then go back to the behavior reinforce a few more reps, then break off and tug.
That sounds reasonable. Do a few reps then play a game then back to more reps


Quote:
I use Susan Garrett's Crate Games DVD to teach crate manners like go into the crate willingly and with enthusiasm, sit when I open the door, and don't leave until I release you, allow with some impulse control. I can get the basics down in one session. When I need to crate my puppy I always scatter a small handful of treat in the crate after they go in. This makes sure the crate remains a valuable place to be and if I am leaving the room they are too busy to notice, and when they do the moment is passed. I also always tend to give my pups something to chew on if they will be crated for a bit. Preventing unwanted behaviors is much easier for me than having to spend time fixing them. Giving a puppy a bully stick or stuffed kong is an easy management tool. If they never start a behavior I don't have to work out how to stop it.
I've been working on the idea that "the door doesn't dismiss you" for the crate. She's getting it. Same with going in. Sit and get a treat before I leave/ give you food

I could fill up her crate with toys and she would still decided to stomp around and chase her tail

I will do more research as well as more tricks and ways to burn off energy
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-19-2017, 07:04 PM
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Targeting with her mouth open. I've always given treats from the flat of my hand. Not sure how to train to target with her nose and THEN take the treat
Are you keeping treats in a separate hand? Treats should not be in the hand you want her to touch.

Start with your hand very close to her nose, like within a couple inches. Mark and reward any movement toward your hand. Nope this is not the end behavior you want, but it isn't biting either, which if you have been rewarding a behavior it will often get more intense if you change criteria by not marking and rewarding it any longer. She will be confused and likely bite harder because you didn't notice her last attempt(s) and she may also go forget this I'm not playing any more. Mark and reward her(from your other hand) a few times just for just moving toward your hand, then with your hand still close wait for her to touch it(there should be no teeth involved), mark and reward her with multiple pieces of whatever you have one right after the other and end that session. If she is getting to amped up at any point stop, also using a lower value reward can help reduce arousal. At the next session start the same, mark and reward just for moving toward your hand then wait a moment longer for her to touch, mouth closed. You can try for a second touch and if you feel teeth just end that session there. Build up the distance your hand can be from her slowly and ping pong back to less distance so you don't just keep making things harder. If you feel teeth end the game. Stand up and leave. No need to scold, the fun stopped and she'll be wondering why.


Quote:
I've been working on the idea that "the door doesn't dismiss you" for the crate. She's getting it. Same with going in. Sit and get a treat before I leave/ give you food
The only time I need a sit is before I open the door. If my puppy goes in they get a reward, I don't care what position they are in after entering the crate.

[QUOTE]
I could fill up her crate with toys and she would still decided to stomp around and chase her tail[QUOTE]

I give edible chews not toys. I find a bully stick or stuffed Kong far for entertaining and distracting than toys. By the time they get done chewing it is nap time. Being crated ends up meaning getting a chew they don't get otherwise and they are so focused on it that there end up not being much if any fussing. I usually softening some puppy food in water and mixing it with yogurt or pumpkin stuff a few kongs and freeze them to use throughout the day as needed. This ends up becoming part of my nightly routine so I am prepped for the next day.

Last edited by Bramble; 11-19-2017 at 07:17 PM.
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