Down/Stay vs Down & Stay - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Down/Stay vs Down & Stay

Hi all. My 14 week old pup is moving along nicely with training, or at least I feel that way so far. He knows a number of commands, but I realized we are teaching him the DOWN followed by the STAY command, rather than the DOWN/STAY and SIT/STAY. I see a number of trainers use the latter.

Question:

Should we retrain our pup to learn DOWN/STAY or is DOWN & STAY perfectly fine?

If retraining is suggested, do we need new words to associate the down/stay, or can we still use DOWN and SIT??


Thanks!
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 04:43 PM
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Many folks train that the sit or down command is also meaning stay . Stay until released by an OK or hand clap. Or stay there until given further instruction.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 04:44 PM
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We taught Jack down & stay separately. Now that's he's a year old and has more impulse control and focus, we're now teaching sit/down until released. Basically, we're just phasing out saying stay. We've said "down/sit" immediately followed by "stay" every single time in our training over the last couple of months, so we're moving on to simply not saying stay.

It doesn't happen every time yet, but we're making progress. 3/5 tries he automatically stays put without us saying so.

But then, I'm not a trainer, so make of that what you will.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 06:08 PM
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You can use any command or combination of commands you wish, unless you are training for Obedience Trials.

If you are training for trials and titles, find out what the commands are for the venues you plan to compete in (rally, AKC/UKC/CKC {Canadian}), etc, and train those specific commands.

If you are training to have a well trained and obedient dog, the difference and distinction is not important. Train in a way that makes sense to you.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 08:13 PM
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If you don't want to use Stay, then just fade the word out. It wont' be hard



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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 08:51 PM
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I've always taught "Down and Stay" as separate commands. I get the part where Sit or Down ... "implies" "Stay" but ... "Boxer" guy I don't like those dogs making a lot of "independent choices."

So for my dog "Down" means "Down" and "Stay" means "Stay." I use those commands as a means of off leash control ... first before teaching recall. As they tend to do "everything" with speed and vigor!

Recall would mean ... stop doing what I am doing ... turn around ... and return to owner?? I don't have time for that crap, "Stay" means stop right where you are and a Down would follow if required??

And my "Boxer" would freeze like a statue if I said "Stay!" Three paws on the ground and the paw in motion ... would stop in motion! I've not seen another dog do that before ... kinda cool. I don't recall what my dogs do as regards "Sit" as long as if they are on leash they stop when I do and go when I do ... it good with me.

And "Rocky" was extremely good with "Place" but I never did the "Focus" thing with him ... so he does understand that "Place" means don't move from here. But I'd always add "Stay" just to make sure, in the real world ... works out fine.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 09:32 PM
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I dont use a "stay" command- if I tell my dog to "down" then he stays down until I tell him otherwise. I have never understood the need for "stay" If you tell your dog down and dont say stay, then what, they go down and jump right back up? No, they down until you tell them to do something.

If I were you i would just stop saying "stay" He is young he will figure it out.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
I dont use a "stay" command- if I tell my dog to "down" then he stays down until I tell him otherwise. I have never understood the need for "stay" If you tell your dog down and dont say stay, then what, they go down and jump right back up? No, they down until you tell them to do something.

If I were you i would just stop saying "stay" He is young he will figure it out.
In my experiance with my handful of dogs ... Yes down means down. So yes if they move they are breaking down but ... not a stay ... "lawyer talk??"

No doubt many people find "Stay" a redundant command?? I'll not argue that is not redundant?? But for me ... "Down and Stay" keeps my dogs from being given the opportunity to make "Poor Choices."

So for "me" the difference between the two, keeps my dogs safe ... that's all "I" care about.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip18 View Post
In my experiance with my handful of dogs ... Yes down means down. So yes if they move they are breaking down but ... not a stay ... "lawyer talk??"

No doubt many people find "Stay" a redundant command?? I'll not argue that is not redundant?? But for me ... "Down and Stay" keeps my dogs from being given the opportunity to make "Poor Choices."

So for "me" the difference between the two, keeps my dogs safe ... that's all "I" care about.
How is it different? What is so different to your dogs with the two commands that they "may" make a bad choice with "down" but not with "stay"?

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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 02:50 AM
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How is it different? What is so different to your dogs with the two commands that they "may" make a bad choice with "down" but not with "stay"?
Over preparation for the unexpected and ... life with "Boxers."

But to your point ... most likely every dog will hold a "Down" if the owner is in sight?? And a three minute out of site "Stay" is part of the CGC test I do belive??

Jeff Gellman says he no longer teaches a "Stay" as a separate command. He also has a partner and she says ... she has to crate her "Mal" to take a shower, becasue while her other dog will hold Place with her out of sight ... her Mal she has to crate??

Since they are partners ... most likely neither of them train "Stay??"
I don't know but I do know if I am in sight and I told my dog Down ... they will down. But for how long ... I don't know?? I've never put a dog in a down for more than 3 minutes???

And I'm eyes on then so if they moved ... I could repeat "Down" but I will say instead "Stay" and they don't move (get back up). If I have them in Down or Place and I'm out of sight?? I give two commands, "Place and Stay" they might break one but they won't break two.

I want my dogs to understand "Stay" as a separate command. I can shout "Stay" ... louder and faster than I can a dog's name. And they respond ... instantly ... then I can call them back or add Down if required???

I typically practice "Down and Stay" together ... but I train Down and Stay at random. As we walk about or play, I'll issue either or both commands at random and if it's "Stay??" The dog stops moving or if it's Down the dog goes Down and I'll say or repeat Stay if required???

Sure it's redundant but if ... I don't have eyes on a dog ... I add "Stay" ... to my way of thinking they may break "Down" if out of site but they won't break "Stay??

Well Rocky did twice and I started to add "Place/Stay" with him if I'm out of sight ... the second time he broke and out of sight "Place/Stay" I was glad he did ... toddler issue!


So ... that' all (my) theory but in the real world ... I don't go looking for trouble but if it comes "our way" we're ready to deal. If ... sigh, when we get charged by loose dogs. I'm not telling my dogs Down?? I will tell them "Stay" and that's what they will do. Rocky proved that was a sound tactic (yet again) on our last recent and now "Walking Stick" equipped loose dog encounter.


I was slightly out of postion (Rocky was behind me off leash) and he was locked and loaded this time as we were charged. I had no time to get in front of Rocky he was beside me ... not ideal. If that (non pointy eared lab got by me) it was gonna be bad! I told Rocky, "Stay" as the dog charged and he did and I stopped that dog. Then I repeated "Stay" again, to keep Rocky out of that now, Dog and Owners face! And he did just that ... Rocky did not step one foot forward. I'm not going to put my dogs in a "Down" in a loose dogs gone wild situation?? I will tell them "Stay" and I will deal with the situation. So for me ... "Stay" works out fine.
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