Questions about (British) slip lead - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Questions about (British) slip lead

I have ordered this leash last week, it has just arrived home and I have a few questions about it.

I have been walking my 7 month old pup with a (another) slip lead for a week now, the difference is that I could not lock it behind the ears. The main problem I have encountered is that he has no issue choking himself if he sees another dog/cat. An example: I am walking on a path through the woods and someone with a dog is coming, I cannot go back (I'll be dragging my pup the whole way), there are high bushes on both sides, so I can't go there either. I just have to wait until they pass. He will lunge so much into the leash that he cannot bark anymore because of how tight it is, he is just opening and closing his mouth without any sound coming out. When the person has passed and he finally rests, you see him gasping for air.
This is an extreme situation, because most of the times I can get out of the way (sometimes the luring with food also helps).
I do not want to damage my boy's throat.. My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault. I prefer not having my pup pass out.

How tight should the leash be behind the ears? Should I be able to fit two fingers? I feel the leash is sliding down easily..

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Last edited by Cassidy's Mom; 06-30-2016 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Fix thread title
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post #2 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 10:23 AM
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WHAT?????!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henricus View Post
My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault.

.


First, I would use a prong if this is what is happening. If your dog is pulling that hard then you are taking a high chance of damaging his trachea.

Second, what else are you doing to modify the behavior? A correction of any kind doesn't do any good if you aren't teaching the behavior you want.



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post #3 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
WHAT?????!!!!!!





First, I would use a prong if this is what is happening. If your dog is pulling that hard then you are taking a high chance of damaging his trachea.

Second, what else are you doing to modify the behavior? A correction of any kind doesn't do any good if you aren't teaching the behavior you want.
Big concerns about the trainer . BIG concerns "My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault."


Sorry , this person does not sound competent.

find your talent in the Ring clubs -- you must have some IPO or
Mondio / KNPV -

from your other posts your dog is very reactive -- and bad mannered.

in some post you said he jumps up and bites people who pet him because he is excited.
you don't correct him , but you get hot headed when the person tries to get some control , asking your dog to off or sit .

he over reacts when seeing dogs .

you have no connection with the dog --

instead of your scheduled 3 walks a day lastng from 45 minutes to an hour and a half - take this dog , and do 15 minutes at a time which will be intense and focused and he will be performing for you , monkey style or not, because you demand it of him.

you can not let this dog go into his zone where he shuts you out .

he isn't thinking enough -- no connection to you - he is in his universe .

reward only for good behaviour. Because he is excitable , can't cap , reward should be calm , maybe reinforced by a finger nail size bit of dry liver .

the behaviour is in his genes , his future is in your hands ,
you will always need to be proactive - on top of things .

difficult dog --

post a pedigree

Carmen

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post #4 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 11:00 AM
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I don't think slip leads are appropriate for puppies, because of the intense strain on a dog's neck, especially if pulling. I'd highly recommend a front-hooking harness for your puppy. Slip leads can be appropriate for a well-trained dog who is navigating in a casual, low-stakes environment, but your trainer sounds fairly misguided about how to teach a dog how to properly walk on a leash.

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post #5 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 11:49 AM
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When I used a dominant dog collar....basically a slip lead collar similar to the collar/lead combo you posted...but much thinner and no lead built into it.....and most likely more quick to the punch as far as the correction goes....I had it fitted much tighter than I assumed it should be.....but I trusted the trainers I was working with. The DDC was up very high on the dog's neck and tight so it would not move around at all. I had a short tab attached to the DDC and then looped around the 6 foot lead which went to a flat or prong collar.....if I ever needed to pop the prong collar..I could do so without engaging the DDC attached to the tab. I only used the DDC for a particular behavior....DA related. I was also instructed that when I engaged the DDC it was done with straight upward pressure...no jerking...or exaggerated pressure...just a steady even straight up motion on the tab close to the dog's neck...until the dog's front paws were off the ground. Pressure on the tab and DDC was ended when the dog settled back into a sitting heel position or got its crap together and maintained a heeling position. During this training...I would have my right hand on the 6 foot lead ....with it coiled up in my hand...and my left hand on the tab to the DDC, being ready to apply the upward pressure if the dog broke from the commanded position due to it's reactivity with other dogs. It was a short process when I used the DDC because of its effectiveness.

The problem I see with the type of leash and collar you posted is it would be difficult to apply the proper upward pressure at times as well as the slip lead being so much thicker than a DDC....the correction would be less or take longer to get to the degree necessary to have the dog desist.

Also...it seems like using the leash/collar you posted allows the dog to pick its own level of correction and torment....and as it pulls against the slip lead the ensuing progression of cutting its air off might just incite the dog even more. My observation of how a DDC worked so effectively was there were no varying degrees of correction due to the dog pulling or lunging....once the dog's front pads were off the ground ....it was "engaged". It was also made very clear to me that the DDC was only to be used for a specific reason...

I never had my dog pass out or come close while using the DDC but she certainly did experience some discomfort from the correction..

I don't know if the use of a DDC was what helped beat my dog's reactivity all on it's own...I truly think it was a combination of many factors and trained obedience was huge....yes, the consequence for the dog losing it's crap in the presence of another dog was harsh during this phase but it was short and to the point. Perhaps more significantly....was all the additional obedience and focus training and learning how to get the dog to give me her engagement is what ultimately got her to come around. She was taught a viable option to replace her losing her marbles lunging and wanting to kill the other dog attitude. To this day, I don't think she cares much for other dogs....except a few.. but she keeps her crap together because of a combination of many factors...mostly the fact that she has to adhere to the obedience training we worked on...and the consequence for staying in line with her training is incredibly rewarding for her.

One other thought....once my dog was connecting the dots...I was instructed on how to use the DDC with subtle pressure when the dog exhibited any precursory behaviors leading up to the dog losing it's crap and doing the lunging breaking command baloney. My dog generally will lower her head a bit....lock on with both eyes and ears will pivot forward...if she exhibited any of her postures...I would just apply a slight amount of pressure to the DDC ...nothing like I would to lift her fronts off the ground.....and the dog would chill. Obviously, catching them before they lose their crap with the slightest reminder ...seemed to work great.

I also watched the DDC being used for handler aggression as well as a dog not coming off a bite once it was latched on to the decoy....besides that I have never seen it used as a primary collar like the slip lead you have. It's an effective tool and one I would have never used unless I was under the guidance of someone who really knew their "stuff".

Much of what I have posted is pretty crude and perhaps in error....I am certain there are other members in here that can critique my attempt at explaining this process.....I hope they do as it will help me going forward understanding the process as well as you.

Of course....when the dog does comply....ya gotta let them know in a big way.

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post #6 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 11:51 AM
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harnesses are garbage for training

I have seen so much restricted, impaired movement with ill fitting harnesses --

great for sled dogs -- weight pulling dogs -- when you want to teach aggitation work where the dog does pull into the harness

part of the opposition reflex

this is a 7 month old youth dog , who is damaging his trachea with his current equipment and improper application of a smart correction

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post #7 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 11:53 AM
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Slip collar are great for suppression but as SuperG said, it's a single correction. Take the breath away for a split second and reengage their brains. It's not ever supposed to be choke them, or let them choke themselves, to the point of unconscious.

I used a slip collar for exactly this. It took two corrections and hasn't behaved like a jerk since.



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post #8 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post

post a pedigree
I am curious if you can look at my dog's pedigree and tell me if my bitch has any predilections based on her lineage. She was handful with her dog reactivity.....seemed to want to dominate every dog she ever came across.

Yakaia vom Herzbach


Thanks,

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post #9 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 12:06 PM
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SuperG - sending you a PM



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post #10 of 88 (permalink) Old 06-28-2016, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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@Jax08
I understand, it doesn't have much effect correcting him if I can't reward the right behavior. I am having difficulty with this part, as is probably apparent by my many threads here.. I try to reward him for walking nicely next to me for example, but that behavior is so temporary that I'm sometimes not even quick enough to reward it. I can offer him a high value treat (dried bovine heart), but he will lose his focus almost immediately if there's another dog close by. I have emailed an applied behavior therapist and requested private training. She is on vacation until the 4th of July, so I need to wait a bit. I hope she doesn't have a tight schedule.. I will also talk with her about using a prong, because I do not trust my inexperienced self with such a tool.

@carmspack
I agree with you, it doesn't sound like a competent person. She's not my main trainer though. But it does bear the question if not all the trainers at that school are like that.

I just discovered there is a KNPV association in my town, never knew it existed here. Are you suggesting to join such an association, or to find a trainer in those places?

That's partly true, he does indeed get overexcited and because of that will almost always jump and bite. But I do correct him. Maybe not in the right way. What I mentioned about people telling him to sit was just that some people seem to think dogs are performing monkeys. They try to give commands to test if the dog listen well enough.

My instructor, the one who had dogs passing out on a slip lead, said I needed to establish a better connection with my dog. That he gets too much for free, without working for it. So she advised me to feed him his kibble from my hands, and I'm trying to incorporate NILF in our daily life. But as hard as it may sound to myself, I think you're right, I have not succeeded in establishing a good connection with my dog.

Thanks for those tips. Just to make it clear for myself. You are saying I should go many times outside with him for short bursts of time and do intensive training? Heel, sit, down, walking, at a fast pace? Or am I seeing this wrong?

I like that sentence, his future is indeed in my hands..

I will post the pedigree of his parents.

Father
Mother

@SuperG
I really like reading how others have managed training their dogs. It really helps. Thanks for the long reply.
The slip lead I have posted an image of is 9mm (1/3inch). Was the DDC you used thinner than that? The only thinner ones I found were show leads.

I've watched a few instructional videos about the slip lead and how to correct upwards. I tried to do it on our walk today, and I think I did it alright, but it didn't help as a correction method. He would go form focusing on a dog (then followed a correction), to focus on the ground and sniff. Even calling him to look at me would not help anything, he just wanted to walk away to sniffing paradise. It's frustrating, because at home he complies much more, he listens much better and is far more calm in general.

"Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not."
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