All the things I should be doing - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #21 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 04:51 PM
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She's nervous about posting it. And given an experience I had when I posted pictures from a friend's litter of puppies, and posters found out Mom wasn't OFA'd yet, well, I can't say I blame her.

This happened on another website, not this one. But I was held personally responsible for the pups' mom not being OFA'd or titled...
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post #22 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 04:57 PM
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She's nervous about posting it. And given an experience I had when I posted pictures from a friend's litter of puppies, and posters found out Mom wasn't OFA'd yet, well, I can't say I blame her.

This happened on another website, not this one. But I was held personally responsible for the pups' mom not being OFA'd or titled...
Well if you have nothing to hide....

I don't agree with blaming others but people should not be breeding dogs without health testing.
And buyers who buy from untested parents have zero room to complain.
Females with lesser or no titles sometimes just means a timing thing. Not an excuse just a reality.
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post #23 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 05:41 PM
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Yes!

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post #24 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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Well, if no one wants to add to the list, then I'll just assume I have it all listed, or people just don't want to provide any more. That's fine. First take the route of least resistance then move towards more of real-time experience.
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Originally Posted by Dainerra View Post
This is the very first thing I was told 18 years ago when I started researching what it took to get a GOOD german shepherd that might be breeding potential.

"What is WRONG with your dog?" Yes, you need to know your dog's good traits but until you can objectively sit down with someone and explain every fault that your dog has, without being offended, you aren't remotely ready to breed. Let alone ready to compete.

People will talk about your dog. They will mention his good points but they will even more loudly point out his flaws. And many of them won't be nearly as nice as the people here have been. Often, going to a working club, they can be even more skeptical of "unusually colored dogs" mostly because they come into it with the idea that the dog was likely not from a responsible breeder. And, again, they can be mean about it.

That thick skin is the first, and most important, step in becoming a breeder. Second is the ability to separate your feelings and love from your dog from your breeding. Third is an objective outlook at the idea of breeding and where a particular dog falls in the spectrum.
Well the thing is that I never said I will not admit to her "faults", but I won't accept them when they are baseless and unreasoned, without evidence to prove it 100% as we have concluded, not having a DNA testing we don't know, and for the matter of breeding qualities, I haven't even begun to try and title her, I'm here to ask how to do it, so obviously without testing her I don't know her faults to begin with, I can only note the ones I personally noticed, which is pretty few, I don't consider myself a great trainer, so who am I to judge really? I'm here to find qualified judgement, not baseless skepticism presuming she is NOT breeding worthy simply because of her coat/mixed and me not being versed in breeding/titling; it doesn't mean she doesn't have the potential, I just need to go and get the testing and trials done, why comment on me not being knowledgeable breeding and attributed to her not being breeding worthy? There's just no relevance between the two factors. It just comes down to ME having to figure out how to see if she can get titled that comes down to proving what she is actually worth.

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Originally Posted by Castlemaid View Post
I just wanted to point out, that Schutzhund/IPO titles ARE Minimum requirements. Schutzhund was designed as a Breed Test, meaning that only the dogs that earned a minimum of SchH I would be considered breedworthy. This is still a requirement in the SV. That is why so many of the pedigrees of German Showlines and Working lines have nothing BUT SchH titled dogs in their pedigree - without titling, the dogs did not qualify for breeding, and their offspring would not be allowed to be registered.

So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.
EUROPAMEISTER isn't a minimum requirement.

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Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
If you NEED a list of things to determine if your dog is breedworthy, then YOU probably are not ready to be breeding. And I don't mean that flippantly. I mean that breeding is more art than science based on knowledge and experience.....once you acquire knowledge THROUGH experience you will begin to understand what you don't understand and can't be explained in words.
Get out there and do some high level training and experience some quality breeding dogs....then you have a start of at least comparing your dog to something tangible.
So, logically, one cannot learn to get ready to be a breeder? Sorry, logic falls short here. Isn't what I'm asking exactly to do with just trying to compile a list (like a shopping list), then going out in the real world to EXPERIENCE and learn in real-time. If you read the whole OP, I specifically stated this:
Quote:
I would like to know immediate actions I can take and straight forward steps to take rather than discussing the nature of breeding like choosing complimentary mates and temperament, feel free to bring it up if need be, but I mainly want to locate the/a source(s) where I can go and gain all the necessary information by going to the access point so to speak.

I am good at learning as I observe in real-time, but of course first gather all the necessary concepts and groundwork of understanding, so if I can go to a club or event that would explain all this it would be the most effective way I think.

Last edited by Winnal; 03-26-2017 at 06:53 PM.
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post #25 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 06:56 PM
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The health testing can start now as I already said. I also said now is a good age to get her evaluated. I would start there and see what that gets you.
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post #26 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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Well she's not 2 years yet, almost. Yeah, planning on a vet visit soon.

I'm not posting my pedigree yet personally, because I'm just not comfortable with a lot of you using a lot of presumptions to make judgement, which is absolutely the worst thing you can do in debate or any sort of logical order of processing truth and reality. I have some background knowledge in law and just debating in general, and I see so many argument fallacies when attempting to disprove me and using so many strawman arguments and red herrings, it's just not ideal for me to post it so soon, until I get the DNA testing done and I am for sure myself that she is pure before I let you guys dive into critiquing her ancestry.

If you appeal to me personally, I'm certainly willing to send it to you privately, as I have done with Sunsilver, thanks again. <3
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post #27 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 07:30 PM
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Dm takes a swab test. Cost about 60 bucks. Can be done at any age.
So can the multitude of other genetic tests.

I personally don't doubt your dog is probably purebred. First because I have seen the coloring before and second because I have worked with all manner of byb shepherds and seen all manner of types and coloring. Lol.
To be perfectly honest I know only what I have learned here about pedigrees. I am personally more interested in the breeder.
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post #28 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Castlemaid View Post
So if someone is serious about breeding, their goal should be to title their dogs first. By going through the process, you learn about drives and temperament, and that is how you gain an insight into understanding what goes into breeding a good dog, as Cliff pointed out. It is not the title in and of itself that makes a dog breedworthy (even a weak dog can get a title with good training - doesn't make the dog any more suited for breeding post-title than pre-title), but the process of uncovering the dog's strengths and weakness through the training and trialing process is what the title reveals to the person doing the titling - so sending dogs away to be titled, is not an effective way to build credibility as a breeder.
I never got to reply to the second part of your post. I completely agree. 100%. That's my plan. Very well-put.
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post #29 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 07:49 AM
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I think everyone here is trying to help you, really, but I am always skeptical about folks that tell you what they need to be told about something they inquiring about.
Your female is almost two; by the time you remotely have the knowledge of her traits/health, ( some of which take time in training to ascertain); and you get the experience to decide 1) whether she is breedworthy, 2) and making a good decision as to an adequate breeding partner,....you probably have missed her breeding window.
Probably less than 20% of females today are good breeding quality in the breed today....that's one out of five, when you have checked all the boxes in this imaginary checklist. Really! This is the reason the breed has so many problems today, folks are either ill informed, or folks driven by personal likes are breeding dogs.
I'm assuming you really want to do this right, therefore the other option is having the breeder assist you in this endeavor providing the breeder is a breeder of extensive breeding experience in this breed.
I just think you have the cart before the horse, there is a reason some of the most knowledgeable breeders on this forum agrees on most things about what you are inquiring about, .....not because they woke up today and just want to rain on your parade, but rather they have seen this movie too many times in past end up non productive.
When it comes to breeding, your knowledge is more important than the individual dog, trust me, that's where you start in my opinion.

Last edited by cliffson1; 03-27-2017 at 07:52 AM.
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post #30 of 52 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
I think everyone here is trying to help you, really, but I am always skeptical about folks that tell you what they need to be told about something they inquiring about.
Your female is almost two; by the time you remotely have the knowledge of her traits/health, ( some of which take time in training to ascertain); and you get the experience to decide 1) whether she is breedworthy, 2) and making a good decision as to an adequate breeding partner,....you probably have missed her breeding window.
Probably less than 20% of females today are good breeding quality in the breed today....that's one out of five, when you have checked all the boxes in this imaginary checklist. Really! This is the reason the breed has so many problems today, folks are either ill informed, or folks driven by personal likes are breeding dogs.
I'm assuming you really want to do this right, therefore the other option is having the breeder assist you in this endeavor providing the breeder is a breeder of extensive breeding experience in this breed.
I just think you have the cart before the horse, there is a reason some of the most knowledgeable breeders on this forum agrees on most things about what you are inquiring about, .....not because they woke up today and just want to rain on your parade, but rather they have seen this movie too many times in past end up non productive.
When it comes to breeding, your knowledge is more important than the individual dog, trust me, that's where you start in my opinion.
I'm glad you're putting so much effort into "trying" to help me, by telling me straight up that I shouldn't even try.

I'm not looking for any subjective advice to sway me in "realizing" I shouldn't even try to see if she is breeding worthy, because, "it'll probably be too late".

I know all you're saying is presuming that I do not realize the amount of work required to breed. Just leave it to the pros. Well, without people like me (that want to learn and start somewhere), there wouldn't be pros to begin with.

That's like saying, "don't even try, because you're probably not going to make it."

I want objective facts and actions to take.

I'm glad you think my "imaginary" list (idk what that means, it's physically written, so not really imaginary) is complete. That means apparently I already learned all the things I need to go and do/learn, and it only took me 2 days to figure it all out (based on your statement that there is nothing more that can be added to the list), thanks to some very helpful people on here (Sunsilver).

By the way, when I learn something, I don't just learn one part at a time, I read the whole index, list everything that I need to learn, then learn it all at once.

Thanks anyway!

Last edited by Winnal; 03-27-2017 at 08:23 AM.
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