Considering Breeding - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 09:52 PM Thread Starter
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Considering Breeding

Since there really is no good resources for the Czechoslovakian Vlcak's forum wise, and I'm also posing the same question to the American Club, since there are no reputable breeders here in the US.

This is something I wouldn't get into for a few years, but I wanted to do my research before hand, so I know what I'm considering getting myself into. I'm not after money or keeping a ton of puppies, thats not my thing. But I think theres potential to get really good dogs here in the US for this breed.

Although I am going to get him into Schutzund/IPO first, I'm not much of one for pretty dogs (although I will make sure he is a good representation of the breed standard first), I'd rather have one that can has the right mind for work, be it agility, IPO, etc. If he is not doing well with IPO or agility, I'm not going to breed him, theres no point.

His father is a Junior Champion and his Mother is a Champion, all grandparents are champions and I have not looked back further, but here is his pedigree: Bingo Ze´ev Bubbledog

I know for the most part, American dogs tend to be garbage for anything other than a lawn ornament, I don't want to breed terrified dogs that look pretty, nor do I want to breed overly aggressive dogs, I want to breed dogs that are excellent examples of the breed standard, are confident and can excel at Schutzund/IPO work, as well as make good pets, a well rounded animal if you will. I know these dogs are naturally skittish, theres no way to breed that out of them. Hips/Elbows are all clear for him, he has been tested, I have the paperwork. His pedigree is clean as well.

Opinions and advice are always welcome.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

Bingo Ze'ev Bubbledog: Ch. Anabella Lostris + JCh.Ferral z Deštné hory

Last edited by BrutalSS; 06-12-2016 at 09:54 PM.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 10:21 PM
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WOW American Dogs Trash...Ornaments ? Seems harsh. I would think that's a big generalization.

I'm not an expert but your dog is beautiful. I hope you get to realize your dream it seems exciting and like it would be very gratifying and your intentions are sincerely for the breed. I hope you get the information you need for your research?
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 10:34 PM
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show me that any of the experimental breedings of GSD and wolf worked out for working.
Czech wolf dog did not work out , Saarloos wolfdog failed.

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 10:34 PM
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You mean American bred wolf crosses?
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 10:50 PM Thread Starter
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Zadbi, I should clarified better, from what I have heard discussing things with various breeders, a lot of working dogs that have all US bloodlines and no overseas bloodlines tend to have undesireable working characteristics, such as excessive fear, etc.

In Europe, there are kennels that do IPO successfully with their CSVs and they even have titles. I am not a conosseur by any means, but I can see the potential in my dog, he just needs training and direction.

No Steve, I am talking about Czechoslavakian Vlcak's, originated as a GSD/Carpathian Wolf Cross in the mid 50s. There were certain characteristics they were trying to get from both breeds to make a better more well rounded animal.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

Bingo Ze'ev Bubbledog: Ch. Anabella Lostris + JCh.Ferral z Deštné hory

Last edited by BrutalSS; 06-12-2016 at 10:53 PM.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 11:27 PM
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I also was referencing European breeding programmes which experimented with wolf crosses.

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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BrutalSS View Post
Zadbi, I should clarified better, from what I have heard discussing things with various breeders, a lot of working dogs that have all US bloodlines and no overseas bloodlines tend to have undesireable working characteristics, such as excessive fear, etc.

In Europe, there are kennels that do IPO successfully with their CSVs and they even have titles. I am not a conosseur by any means, but I can see the potential in my dog, he just needs training and direction.

No Steve, I am talking about Czechoslavakian Vlcak's, originated as a GSD/Carpathian Wolf Cross in the mid 50s. There were certain characteristics they were trying to get from both breeds to make a better more well rounded animal.
Just saw your pictures of your pup. He is stunning. Love his eyes.

Just read about the history of the breed on

http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/

Interesting. Seems like breeding for this cross is challenging based on this US breeder's site declaration

http://galomyoak.com/

It seems like there is a void of quality breeders in the US since the CSVCA does not reccomend any US breeder's currently. Seems ground breaking I wish you luck. Beautiful Dogs.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 11:39 PM
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if I understand correctly you have had your dog for about 6 months -- and he is a novel breed , which the vast majority have no experience with ---

You haven't known the breed , nor the dog , long enough to test and evaluate the usefulness of this breed for work purposes.

I did know a young Czech man who came to Canada trying to find employment in "police training". His experience in Czechoslavkia was as a canine handler / manager with Pohranicni Straze.
He showed me pictures of the kennelled area immediately behind his state provided cottage. In those pens were the Czech wolf-dogs that Pohranicni Straze was experimenting with as working animals.

They could not come close to the GSD that the same programme was breeding. Remember that this was a sophisticated breeding programme deliberately trying to produce good working wolf-dogs --- and could not do it.

They had issues . Not particularly biddable -- more flight than assertive fight.

Saarloos , the private Dutch effort came up with the same results -- flighty dogs.

How are you working this pup --- good looking ! nice natural conformation .

His sire and dam are Champions of what?

We also had a South American forum member who took on a Vlcak .as an experiment and would write the occasional post . Seemed to have lots of problems as far as training for a reliable response .
onyx'girl, mycobraracr and dogma13 like this.

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Last edited by carmspack; 06-12-2016 at 11:45 PM.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 11:41 PM
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I'm not familiar with vlaks, but if this is true:

Quote:
I know these dogs are naturally skittish, theres no way to breed that out of them.
Then I have to ask why do you want to use IPO to test your breeding stock? Sounds a bit like fitting a square peg in a round hole ya know.

Quote:
In Europe, there are kennels that do IPO successfully with their CSVs and they even have titles.
IPO titles are not in their self a testament to a dog's true working ability. If you tweak the variables enough - showing on their home field, with a helper they've worked with before, and a forgiving judge - even a poor dog can get a title.

Have you actually watched vlcaks working in ipo?

I think it is great you want to work with a rare breed. That can be very rewarding. Im just not sure your chosen venue is the best way to tap into the breed's true potential. One thing you might wanted consider, is going to be the placement of your pups. Who is it that is going to want to bring a wolfy looking dog into their home and for what purpose?

I doubt that sport and working dog people are going to be overly interested in them for those purposes, especially as you said they have a skittishness that can't be bred out. Why would they take the chance on that when there are so many good gsds and mals out there?

It seems to me the type of people who would be interested in your pups are people who are looking for companion dogs and those into conformation showing.

Obedience and agility would probably be a better fit to test working ability, and would be attractive to the future puppy owners. Then conformation titles to make sure they are adhering to the standard.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 11:48 PM
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"Quote:
I know these dogs are naturally skittish, theres no way to breed that out of them."

That is what the problem was .
why breed ? big fish in a little pond?

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