"Should I breed my dog?" Flowchart - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #31 of 48 (permalink) Old 07-08-2014, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Merciel View Post
This is a blog post that I recently wrote for TU. I think it could be a good complementary piece to the flowchart, and it's aimed at the same type of audience, so I'm tacking it onto this thread.
I found the piece to be engaging, informative and, of course, well written. Nice job, Merciel.
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post #32 of 48 (permalink) Old 07-08-2014, 10:47 PM
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I think it's as good for buyers as it is for someone considering breeding.
Re: the bolded part, for the most part, I agree with you.

However, if this piece were to be purposely directed at buyers vs. novice people contemplating breeding their dogs, I would probably like it to also include the fact that shelters and rescues are often used by performance-oriented organizations/individuals to find recruits for their programs.

Why do they do so? It is because shelters have large populations of young-adult and adult dogs who can be health and temperament tested to determine if any individual dog has what it takes to be part of their program/or to meet an individual’s performance needs. At the end of the day, puppies are always somewhat of a gamble no matter where they come from.
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post #33 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-23-2015, 12:48 PM
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I am NOT a dog breeder but I do see several problems with that flowchart and some of the people who respond on this site...
I have been around a few breeders in my life and almost without fail (there is always exceptions to any rule) they all try to discourage anyone from getting into breeding, unless for some reason or another it benefits them or they don't feel threatened by that individual. Of course some of you will disagree, but the simple truth is, they do. Just take this flowchart for example, that is all it does is try to discourage someone new from venturing into this endeavor. Now I have to ask myself, why? The only logical reason I can come up with is fear of competition, not "what's best for the breed"... which leads to the second problem I see.
Person after person saying we want "what is best for the breed." I have to seriously laugh at this statement, dogs have been breeding long before we stepped in, nature will automatically do "what's best for the breed" whether any of you like it or not. Now I am not saying science can't improve upon nature at all, but having a little age to me, I have seen some very healthy, wonderful animals come out of a non controlled environment. you can take two average dogs and breed a grand champion, then take two grand champions and breed average dogs... there is no guarantee, and many make it sound like there is. Now I am not saying science can't improve the chances, personally I don't know. But, unless you're a Geneticist that specialized in dog genetics, neither can you, nor the people who told you this was a fact. But judging from what I have seen in my life, it doesn't.
The next problem and by far the biggest one: the second step states "reputable breeder (one who follows the guidelines in this flow chart).
anyone who has a litter and not only wants to unload them, but NEEDS too will say whatever they feel they have to in order to unload said litter upon whoever they can. There is no way unless you know the person very well, that you will know whether they do or don't... and anyone that takes someone else word as fact without knowing for sure, is a fool. So the majority of you might as well just go directly from "begin" to "do not breed" unless you got your entire breeding stock from a family member, friend or source you KNOW you can trust. But there is also a problem with that, where did they get their stock from? And so on and so forth.
Now for the worst case scenario; well know reputable breeder ends up with a dog with papers and a wonderful looking pedigree... said dog came from someone they know who got it from someone they know, whatever. Dog's origins are from a sire that was registered but didn't have breeding rights, dam was registered and had breeding rights. Another dogs credentials were used for the dog without breeding rights... all are registered AKC, let's say, but the pedigree is faked. don't tell me it can't happen, my guess is at least one of you have a dog your using for breeding that came from this or something similar.
In other words, this entire posting in my humble opinion is a JOKE. But hey, who am I? Just my two cents...
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post #34 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-23-2015, 01:04 PM
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I have to add, the proposed possibility does not take into account DNA being on file... this will naturally make that impossible.
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post #35 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-23-2015, 01:29 PM
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I have been around a few breeders in my life and almost without fail (there is always exceptions to any rule) they all try to discourage anyone from getting into breeding, unless for some reason or another it benefits them or they don't feel threatened by that individual. Of course some of you will disagree, but the simple truth is, they do. Just take this flowchart for example, that is all it does is try to discourage someone new from venturing into this endeavor.
My experience has been the opposite. Those I know personally who have been breeding quality dogs for a long time were very supportive of me, helped me through my decisions about breeding, and mentored through the actual process of breeding (FWIW the only breeding animal I own is a male, but it was still a big decision/responsibility for me when deciding whether he was breed quality). It's the armchair breeders who've never actually bred anything that have been the most discouraging and the ones pushing flow charts.
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post #36 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-23-2015, 02:14 PM
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In other words, this entire posting in my humble opinion is a JOKE. But hey, who am I? Just my two cents...

And who are you?
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post #37 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-23-2015, 09:19 PM
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Without criteria, there will be problems arising. Without new breeders learning how to put together pedigree matches, health testing specific for the breed and keeping themselves held accountable doing it responsibly, what is wrong with that? Mentors are important, and l know of quite a few breeders willing to help others do it responsibly.
Anyone can be a breeder, there is nothing to stop them...and people will buy from them regardless. We all choose who to support as far as breeding practices go.

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post #38 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-23-2015, 09:31 PM
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Person after person saying we want "what is best for the breed." I have to seriously laugh at this statement, dogs have been breeding long before we stepped in, nature will automatically do "what's best for the breed" whether any of you like it or not.
Noooo. . . nature will crate a planet full of very hardy mixed breeds. If we let nature take its course there will be no breeds at all in very short order.


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post #39 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-23-2015, 09:38 PM
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I am interested in the two average dogs that make a grand champion myself. But, it makes sense that you can then breed such a dog to another grand champion and get a very average litter. Because the progeny are a combination of the dogs behind them, not just the sire and dam. And a pedigree of VA dogs or champions is more likely to net you a VA dog or champion than a couple of average dogs. VA is by the way Excellent Select, so none of those dogs would be average.

In the end it comes from your last paragraph. You know of a dog that oughtn't to have been bred, and was bred, and is now being used with a pedigree that is incorrect. No, most of us who are breeding would not do this, nor would we breed a dog that we knew had a falsified pedigree.

Could it happen? Yes, it could by a small breeder especially, because if you use a sire less then 3 times in a year or 7 times total there is no requirement for DNA on the dog. Which means, your liklihood of being caught go way down, if you can keep your mouth shut. The thing is, it sounds like your person hasn't, and depending on how big of a fish they are, they will be caught sooner or later. The penalty for that is usually a pretty hefty fine and a suspension for a number of years, maybe 10. Hard to say, but if you look at the old AKC Gazettes, they list the breeders whose litters were found incorrect, and I really don't know what all happens, but I think all the pups from such litters are no longer granted papers. And they do give the penalties that the breeders get.

So, it is generally something most of us wouldn't touch with pole. Some of us do use a male who has been used more than 7 times or an import so DNA has been done on them. And the rest of us use dogs with full registration, because they just aren't that hard to come by. Dog doesn't have full registration, he gets knocked off the list of potential stud dogs period.

No one serious about the breed is going to breed to a dog they know has a pedigree that is incorrect because we are not just wanting to see the dogs in front of us, we want to see how the back massing is coming into play, and what traits are coming forth. We want to know what dogs are back there, and what to expect. We want to know that we aren't breeding too closely on dogs that we are uncertain about.

So the post is basically, a post from someone who knows their dog, or a friends dog has an incorrect pedigree, and they want justification to go ahead and use such a dog anyway. Not going to happen.

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post #40 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-24-2015, 02:04 AM
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Well, for me it was all "go" until the last box on the left hand side. "Does your dog's pedigree contain at least four dogs with working,conformation,agility or obedience titles in the last 2 generations?

For my pup, one gen back AKC but no show/competition, 2 gens back foreign registry with no record but bearing known USA respected names; 3-7 gens back, tons of titles everywhere.

My point is, one of the first blocks for "yes/no" to breeding should have been - "is your dog oversize for breed standard" yes/no. Deal killer with my oversize female.
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