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12K views 80 replies 26 participants last post by  Jchrest 
#1 ·
Hi everyone, I have a bit of a sad story. I have a 3 year, 4 month old GSD. We got him at 8 weeks old and he has never been without me, I'm retired and stay home every day. I have treated Tian (my GSD'S name) like a son. He was aggressive at 8 weeks old, would bite all the time. We thought over time he would get over that, no so. If he was a human he would already have had a heart attack or nervous breakdown. He stays in the "alert" mode every time we leave the house. If he sees another dog walking on a leash he goes crazy. I started using a pinch collar about a year and a half ago and that has helped. I could eat out of his food dish if I chose to, nothing bothers him in that respect. We play all the time, catch, Frisbee and 4 walks a day. He doesn't like people, and I mean anybody. We socialized him at PetSmart numerous times to no avail.
He has chewed about everything in the house, so we decided to let that run its course and just replace everything afterward.
Here is my problem, and a serious one. I came home the other day saw the carpet in a pile after he chewed it. He was standing next to me so I reached down and slid my hand thru his collar, like I have done many times before, to scold him. I have never hit him and never will. I scold him with words and he understands what I say. He is the most intelligent dog I have ever had. At that moment all **** broke loose, he lifted his lip, growled and attacked me like I've never seen before. Seemed like a mili-second and I was bleeding all over the place. He bit my upper arm and punctured it top and bottom. I was trying my best to pull his head off my arm and he got me two more times before I held his head away from me. My wife came out of the bedroom screaming. I held my dog down on the floor by the back of his collar for about 30 to 40 seconds. I started to release him a little at a time. He did not growl or make any aggressive moves from that point on. I let him go and he went into the kitchen. My wife doctored me up and I cleaned the blood from the carpet. I don't think I can trust him ever again. I will say that since that time, he is a different dog, and I mean that in a good way. He minds better and has a different attitude about everything. It was a week ago today that this happened. 5-12-19. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Richie.
 
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#2 ·
Complete vet work up. Blood work to test thyroid..check for any pain..if not get a great and experienced trainer. Rage syndrome is not at all common but not unheard of. I know personally of one Rescue GSD that was put down with it. Determined by VERY experienced working dog people. But pain or things like brain tumors can cause drastic changes in dogs. Go to Leerbug.com and read about what a dominant dog vs an aggressive dog is. And about a dominant dog collar. Prayers for you and the dog as I can only imagine how you feel.
 
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#5 ·
Thank you dogbyte, as I mentioned to Sabis mom, my dog had is annual checkup last month and all was OK. Not sure how in depth the checkup was but Tian has been his normal self since. Nobody can approach him, he won't let anyone outside the family near him or us. I will go to Leebug.com. Thanks again. Richie
 
#3 ·
Post your location and some of the members here should be able to recommend a trainer. Not a petsmart or your local force free trainer, but an actual trainer who knows how to deal with this. @Jax08, lol, usually knows where to find one.
In the meantime I second the vet exam, full work up. Rule out any medical. But the fact that he is being good now speaks volumes.
 
#4 ·
Post your location and some of the members here should be able to recommend a trainer. Not a petsmart or your local force free trainer, but an actual trainer who knows how to deal with this. lol, usually knows where to find one.
In the meantime I second the vet exam, full work up. Rule out any medical. But the fact that he is being good now speaks volumes.
Sabis mom, thank you for your response. Tian had his complete annual checkup last month, all was normal. Since that happened he has been the perfect buddy that is was previously. I've never been around any dog that stares right thru you with the most intense stare like he does, it's incredible. Live just outside Atl. GA Thanks again. Richie
 
#6 ·
You have a 3 1/2 yr old dog that has no respect for you! So my advice would be to hire a good, balanced trainer with GSD-specific experience to help you!

From your description of events I'd say this outcome was pretty predictable. Here's why I say that: I have never grabbed my dog's collar to correct or control her ever! I have never held any dog down by their neck, or physically put them on their back ever, nor would I! The fact that you have, and do, speaks volumes about your relationship with your dog.

Chewing up your furniture, barking and being out of control around people or dogs, and being allowed to do so since he was 8 weeks old?! Did you think he'd somehow grow out of that without guidance? Lots of puppies act this way, and they require firm and consistent guidance to learn that this kind of behavior is not acceptable! But physically grabbing and/or holding your dog on his back as a means of communication is also not needed, nor is it productive! You set yourself and your dog, however well intentioned, up for the ultimate confrontation you experienced.

If you want to move forward in a productive way with this dog, hire a good trainer to help you both communicate with each other in a more productive way.
 
#9 ·
Hi Tim, I appreciate your comment. First lets get something straight, you said ""But physically grabbing and/or holding your dog on his back as a means of communication is also not needed, nor is it productive!"" Where did you get that from?? I have NEVER done that to my dog, PERIOD.
I was defending myself from further violence and being bitten more, that is the first time I ever did that!! When I put my hand under my dog's collar every day and talk to him I scratch his neck where the collar rides, and he loves it. I am the most gentle person a dog could ever have. I lay down on the floor with my dog every day and we talk, he follows me everywhere I go. We have what I call " quiet time" I take him in the bedroom and I just flop on the bed and he jumps up next to and we just lay there together for 15 minutes, we do this every morning. I have NEVER mistreated my dog, I treat him like a human. Many times during the day he will come to me and stand there until I put my forehead down against his forehead just rub our heads together.
As far as your other comments about getting a trainer I agree with. Richie
 
#7 ·
Yeah.... You are fortunate that your dog hasn't had an obstruction. So if you can post your location, maybe someone can help you with a trainer. But be prepared for his entire life to change, starting with crating. Strict rules, no more Doggie Daddy. Strict obedience. Strict rules. Crated when left alone. He doesn't have to like people or other dogs. He does have to respect their right to breathe.

On a side note, 8 week old puppies are not "aggressive". This breed is called landsharks for a reason. It's our responsibility to teach them what they can and can not bite - many MANY threads on this forum on that. And it's our responsibility to teach them that eating our homes is not acceptable. If this is done at a young age then the situation never evolves into a bite to the owner.

So do the medical work up if you feel necessary but I'm on the find a good trainer bandwagon. The fact that you were able to pull his head off of your arm, regardless of the severity of the first bite which sounds like a full bite, tells me he wasn't trying to kill you.
 
#10 ·
Yeah.... You are fortunate that your dog hasn't had an obstruction. So if you can post your location, maybe someone can help you with a trainer. But be prepared for his entire life to change, starting with crating. Strict rules, no more Doggie Daddy. Strict obedience. Strict rules. Crated when left alone. He doesn't have to like people or other dogs. He does have to respect their right to breathe.

On a side note, 8 week old puppies are not "aggressive". This breed is called landsharks for a reason. It's our responsibility to teach them what they can and can not bite - many MANY threads on this forum on that. And it's our responsibility to teach them that eating our homes is not acceptable. If this is done at a young age then the situation never evolves into a bite to the owner.

So do the medical work up if you feel necessary but I'm on the find a good trainer bandwagon. The fact that you were able to pull his head off of your arm, regardless of the severity of the first bite which sounds like a full bite, tells me he wasn't trying to kill you.
Thanks Jax08, I appreciate your helpful comments. Richie.
 
#8 ·
Richie, I sent via private msge the name and phone # of the trainer I used with Woolf. She is in the Gwinnett area and depending on your location in GA, well worth the drive.

Completely agree with with previous posts. Medical exam. Crate training. Muzzle conditioning. High level of OB.

Whichever trainer you do decide to go with; verify their experience. Unfortunately, we have a huge number of less then knowledgeable 'trainers' in GA. You want a balanced trainer, not positive only.
 
#13 ·
Richie, I sent via private msge the name and phone # of the trainer I used with Woolf. She is in the Gwinnett area and depending on your location in GA, well worth the drive.

Completely agree with with previous posts. Medical exam. Crate training. Muzzle conditioning. High level of OB.

Whichever trainer you do decide to go with; verify their experience. Unfortunately, we have a huge number of less then knowledgeable 'trainers' in GA. You want a balanced trainer, not positive only.
Twyla, I sent you a PM, thanks. Richie
 
#14 ·
@Richie - I just saw your introduction post and your age. With no disrespect meant and only concern. I would be telling my dad the very same thing I'm telling you.

Please Please Please get a good trainer. This is a young, powerful, male. I think you are very lucky that you were able to overcome him and that he exercised some inhibition by allowing it. I really feel this is a training issue and possibly a dog that has had no rules. Please be realistic about what is best for you and your wife to keep you safe. This could have ended so very badly. I hope Twyla's trainer works out for you.
 
#18 ·
@Richie - I just saw your introduction post and your age. With no disrespect meant and only concern. I would be telling my dad the very same thing I'm telling you.

Please Please Please get a good trainer. This is a young, powerful, male. I think you are very lucky that you were able to overcome him and that he exercised some inhibition by allowing it. I really feel this is a training issue and possibly a dog that has had no rules. Please be realistic about what is best for you and your wife to keep you safe. This could have ended so very badly. I hope Twyla's trainer works out for you.
Jax08, I completely understand your comments and greatly appreciate your concern. My dog is 98 lbs and very muscular, he tracks down 30 to 40 Frisbees every day as fast as he can run. I will do research into finding training help. Twyla has suggested a trainer and I will follow up. Thanks once again. Richie.
 
#15 ·
I agree with people who posted that the dog showed a lot of inhibition here. Had he wanted to hurt you badly, he very well could have. This tells me, without seeing the dog of course, that is it mainly a training issue and not something new or medical.

I do know of a great trainer in North Carolina, if you wanted to make a drive.

But please find and start working with an experienced trainer. As in immediately. He is now a fully mature male dog who will start testing and already has... it isn't too late to turn this around, but it needs to start now.
 
#20 ·
I agree with people who posted that the dog showed a lot of inhibition here. Had he wanted to hurt you badly, he very well could have. This tells me, without seeing the dog of course, that is it mainly a training issue and not something new or medical.

I do know of a great trainer in North Carolina, if you wanted to make a drive.

But please find and start working with an experienced trainer. As in immediately. He is now a fully mature male dog who will start testing and already has... it isn't too late to turn this around, but it needs to start now.
Thanks Saco, I do have a lead on a trainer close by and will get in touch. Richie.
 
#17 · (Edited)
It sounds like a temperament problem more than a training or medical problem, as the dog has been this way from the beginning. Your description sounds like he is a sharp-shy dog who is reactive out of fear and insecurity. The constant destructiveness supports that he is a very anxious dog. "The sharp-shy dog is the epitome of bad temperament. He is easily driven to panic by the unfamiliar... This psychologically unstable animal will, if the occasion arises, bite one of its owners in blind panic without even being aware of having done so." Often this type of dog is put down/euthanized.
 
#19 ·
Thanks Chip for your comment. My dog is back to "better" than normal to this point. We rubbed heads this morning and I brushed him until he fell asleep. I think he has been and probably is a fearful dog, when anyone approaches me or my wife the dog's hair stands up on the back of his neck and butt and he growls very aggressively. When I let him out into the fenced back yard he takes off like a jet with his hair standing up, I guess he thinks something might be out there. I have no intention of getting rid of him, I will work thru this. I raised my two previous GSDs back in the 60"s the same way I raised my current dog and they were both perfect loveable dogs. Again, thanks Chip. Richie.
 
#22 · (Edited)
@Richie - do you have a pedigree for this dog?

Please don't get stuck in the mindset of you will not get rid of this dog. You need to do what is right to keep you and your wife safe. That could mean rehoming him to a person who can handle him. Just start with an experienced trainer who can properly evaluate this dog and your relationship.
 
#23 ·
8 week old puppies are not malicious the are do like to bite and some are more mouthy then others. I would go to vet and have full work up but this does sound like a temperament problem at three years plus of age they are mature for the most part and become who they are. It does sound like a temperament problem as the dog did go after you the owner. Powerful dogs must be trained well but they also must be sound and stable otherwise it can be a complete nightmare. Find a balanced trainer who has knowledge of this breed. I’m glad you are okay.
 
#33 ·
@Richie

Contact these people. Dennis Vander Linde has been involved with German Shepherds for decades. They are in Cumming GA. Dennis is the Director at Large for the USCA helper program. This would be one of my first choices regardless of the drive (I know GA is a big state!)

Canine Relations - Home

Thanks Jax08, got it. Richie.
 
#27 ·
I am an experienced German Shepherd owner but when I got my WL puppy, it was like taking on a new breed. I made some mistakes and I changed my handling methods a lot. I am still learning and can't wait to use the new things I learned on the next dog. The best decision I ever made was using a private trainer. My dog is now an excellent companion at age 3, but getting there tried the core of my patience. The breeder said he was a medium drive dog. He is not. I think what she meant is that he's not over the top on drive, but it's much higher than I expected or planned for. However, he is medium energy, which I also did not expect. So, the private trainer explained what I was seeing and showed me how to work with his drive rather than against it. He's now an amazing dog. I should also say he has never showed any handler aggression, but I had other problems and made a few mistakes that were mostly correctable. Please find a good trainer and do what the person shows you. You can fix this!
 
#35 ·
There are several red flags I noticed in your postings.

1) "My wife says I have spoiled him too much." Someone outside (a third party) of YOUR relationship with YOUR dog is telling you that. From what I've been reading about your descriptions, it does sound like your wife is right.

2) "I have treated Tian (my GSD'S name) like a son." You gotta remember...he's a dog, not a human being. You can't "humanize" him and treat him like a human, especially this one. You have to treat him like a dog. He needs more discipline and boundaries. Also, I think with this dog, affection should be earned, not freely given.

3) "I raised my two previous GSDs back in the 60"s the same way I raised my current dog and they were both perfect loveable dogs." Something I keep saying in these forums is, every dog is different. They have different personalities, different genetics, etc. What works for 1 dog, may not work for another. You have to switch it up with this dog.

4) "I was not strict enough with him in the past" It's good that you realize that. I think with this particular dog you need to be stricter.

5) "He was aggressive at 8 weeks old, would bite all the time." That sounds like typical GSD puppy behavior. Everyone's gone through this. Something I've mentioned a lot in these threads...I've gone through 3 large boxes of bandages and 2.5 large tubes of Neosporin...all from his biting when he was small. Like someone else said, there are plenty of threads in these forums about the biting (or landsharking).

6) "He has chewed about everything in the house, so we decided to let that run its course and just replace everything afterward." Mistake right there...should've stopped it instead of letting it go. Also, I'm assuming he's doing the chewing when you're not around, because otherwise you would've stopped it right away. That means he needs to go in a crate. He cannot be trusted to be left alone.

My suggestion...ditto what everyone else said: Find a good trainer who knows the breed and how to fix these issues. Meanwhile, I think you need to change the way you think and how you interact with this dog. He's not the same as your previous 2 GSDs. I've had to learn that same thing myself with the current dog...he's completely different than the previous one.
 
#36 ·
It sounds like several are thinking this is a foundation or training issue when it is likely a severe temperament defect resulting in a psychologically unstable dog that is mentally unsound. Training can only possibly hide the fault to those who don't read dogs well. This type of temperament fault is not fixable.
 
#37 ·
What would you recommend then? In my experience training and management can allow all but the worst cases to live happy and productive lives.
I am sort of reading a potential temperament issue that was exacerbated by a lack of foundation and training. An already insecure dog with no guidance. If he was truly aggressive the bite would have been worse and if he was one of the rare ones Richie would not have been so able to get him to release and back off, nor would the dog be making amends now.
I would truly like to hear your thoughts on where this should go, not being sarcastic. My experience is largely with poorly bred dogs and those already damaged by abuse, so I am always curious how people with normal dogs deal with these types of issues.
 
#38 ·
I already recommended that he should be aware of the potential liability, the likelihood that this behavior will happen again, his fence should be secure and that the issue is a genetic temperament fault that training won't fix. It is not for me to say what the owner should do with his dog. I don't know what your definition of "truly aggressive" is but the OP said his dog attacked him violently and he was covered with blood. "You can't make chick salad out of chicken ****."
 
#39 ·
Chip, you've already mentioned that it's a temperament issue. Ok, then tell Rich (and the rest of us) what Rich can do to "fix" the issue...what can he do to make things better with the dog? He asked for help and advice. Telling him to be aware of potential liability isn't fixing/solving the problem. (Are you telling us that the dog is a lost cause and a temperament issue is not fixable or manageable because that's what you're inferring?) That's preparing for something that hasn't happened yet. Tell him what he needs to do NOW so that the worst case scenario doesn't happen. How do you fix/solve/repair/control/manage (or whatever)...a temperament issue? Give him solutions or options and then maybe the rest of us can get behind you. Because many of us see good training by a good trainer will help manage the situation. But if you've got something better, let us in on what it is. I'm being sincere, not combative/sarcastic.
 
#42 · (Edited)
I don't know what you are referring to when you mention arguing and hijacking. The problem with so-called professional dog trainers is that there is no federal or state requirements for certification or licensure, so anyone can call themselves a dog trainer. A person can get certified for about $3,000 to $5,000 dollars. Having credentials does not necessarily correlate with competency. If a person trains dogs for income, they are incentivized to sell their service. I understand a dog can't be assessed via a discussion board, but Rich gave a pretty good history that is very consistent with a sharp/shy dog that training won't mitigate. Think about Cesar Millan. He has no credentials and says his ability to train dogs is instinctual. He talks about the energy of the dog and the handler. He promotes being the alpha in the pack, which has been debunked. His methods are not based on science. He is a fan of flooding, where when a dog is afraid of something, the dog is exposed to the fearful stimulus at full force. He gets by on his charisma. Rich might be better off saving the money he would spend on a "professional" dog trainer to buy his next dog. Trainers can only teach a dog new behaviors. They can't change their temperament.
 
#44 ·
Did I recommend Cesar Milan? Did anyone? No. Twyla recommended someone she has personal experience with and I recommended the director of the USCA helper program. Just taking a wild guess that Dennis may know a thing or two about german shepherds.

You are guessing that it's 100% temperament based. We are guessing that part of the problem may be no rules. And since not a single person on here can actually see the dog, how about the 75 year old man with the 100# dog go see someone in person instead of debating crazy Cesar Milan.
 
#51 ·
Has your dog started ANY new meds? Excerpt from my book.

"Paradoxical Reactions: It Can Happen to You

The three-year old German shepherd had been agitated a bit, and his owners decided to bring the dog to their local veterinarian. Finding no physical reason for the dog's behavior, the vet recommended a short course of Acepromazine. "Ace" is a frequently used drug to calm a dog that's fearful of thunderstorms. It's also used as a pre-operative sedative, and for a multitude of other uses, all of them valid. I've used it on thunder-phobic shepherds over the past decades and never had a problem with it. And it's one of those drugs that I keep around just in case I need it.

The owners took the dog home. In the coming days they saw a marked increase in aggression, directed toward them. When the dog finally turned and tried to bite the husband, it signaled the end.

We don't know, of course, what caused the dog's initial agitation. But most likely the marked increase in his level of agitation after having been given Acepromazine may well have been the result of the drug causing what's called in the veterinary world as a "paradoxical reaction"–a response that's one hundred and eighty degrees from what you'd normally expect."
 
#52 ·
I can only think of 2 things to consider after the medical evaluation. And I'm sorry to be blunt. 1) Get an evaluation of the dog from an excellent trainer to see what if anything can be done. 2) Consider euthanasia. Once your own dog attacks you viciously you really have to consider that as perhaps the kindest option. None of my dogs would ever do that so I'd say that honestly something is wrong with your dog physically or mentally.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Sabis,
My point about qualifications and trainers was that anyone can call themselves a trainer, but that doesn't mean they know what they are doing. It doesn't mean all people who train dogs are incompetent. Regarding aggression, some forms of it are desirable and some are not. Training and genetics are both factors. In Rich's case, it sounds like genetics is the primary culprit. While GSDs were developed for herding, selection in breeding has shifted a good deal, so the end result is different strains of dogs. Some of the working lines have been selected more for traits that would assist them in police apprehension. I don't believe that all GSD will have natural guarding drives. Many do not. Soldes just posted about burglars coming into his house and the dog did nothing. The herding lines were also a different genetic strain and are pretty much extinct. Defensive drive is for survival, so it will always be there, but it can be strong and active or weak and passive.
 
#58 ·
Soldes dog was in a crate so not sure what it was expected to do.

Additionally many poorly bred byb dogs start to show some herding instinct/traits. And different environments can adjust how a dog behaves. My dogs previous owners got rid of her for being too nice, said they'd never even heard her bark. She now barks to alert with us. I doubt she'd do more than that but it is there to some degree some guarding instinct.

I didn't think so because of how beaten down my dog was when she first came to us. But I also think she'd be fully capable of tending style herding. She tries to do it now as is, just minus anything to actually herd such as sheep.

Also many many dogs who are coddled and spoiled and treated like people instead of dogs have problems with biting. They're primarily small breed dogs but it is possible to see in dogs who don't have boundaries or proper training. Which it sounds like this dog does not since he was given free reign to destroy the house. I myself have been bitten and almost bitten by 2 small dogs raised by the same person, she was very lenient and soft with them. One of them ended up living with us and he turned into a great dog who didn't try to bite anymore after we worked with him and treated him like a dog.

You can love your dog and spoil them but still set boundaries and limits and train them. The two or not mutually exclusive. Although depending on the dog thing change on how you can spoil them. For example (and I know table scraps are frowned upon) my dog (not the gsd) is a great dog but also if given an inch can take a mile. My mom really wanted to give a couple pieces of leftovers so I said okay as long as you put them in her bowl. That same night my dog jumped up on the counter for the first time. So some dogs you will have to be stricter and not do certain things. But you can definitely spoil and love them in other ways.

So OP I hope the trainers you go to are good and can help teach you to get a handle on your dog. There's a good chance he'll even enjoy training and make sure everybody in the home keeps up with what you learn or it'll be difficult to get the training to stick.
 
#57 · (Edited)
I sure don’t believe in just rehoming dogs without trying and accepting advise just based on assumption via the internet. A highly recommended trainer with knowledge of gsd is wise to seek out to evaluate the situation and help give options and guide the owners to the next step. As well as gifted, there are way to many close minded teachers, doctors etc. all certified and absolutely awful at what they do. Recommendations can go along way regarding certified and non certified services and so do second or third opinions if needed. I also say listen to your instincts. I would remove any collars to just to prevent grabbing at collar also in a habit form. The first would be a vet check though to see if the dog was in severe pain or any other reasons why the dog may have reacted so severely.
 
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